A plea

By Edouard Aldahdah

Posted on January 7th, 2012 in General

Today, preservation breeders of asil Arabians in the USA breed on a small scale. They are fewer breeders than before and they are far between. Many of these breeders don’t always have the stallions their mares need, whether in their barns of just around the corner. Some breeders have the stallions but not the mares. Some have stallions who are sons and brothers of their mares, and don’t want to inbreed.

There needs to be a good supply of (non-Egyptian) Al Khamsa stallions registered to ship semen from. When I wanted to breed Jadiba to a Davenport stallion this past summer, the only ones I could find who were ready to ship were Triermain CF in Illinois, Vice Regent CF in Georgia, and Pal-Ara Sensation and Mandarin in Oregon. Mandarin died last year, and Triermain is getting old. I opted for Vice Regent but now I have more mares and I wish there are other stallions to choose from.

There is no shortage of outstanding Davenport and BLUE STAR and other asil stallions, who ought to be registered to ship. I wish Davenport stallions like Regatta CF, Daedalus LD, Porte CF, Silverton CF, Indie Star, Eldar HD, Shiraz CF, Clarion CF, Firebolt, Chancery CF, Popinjay, Bah-Rani, Pulcher Ibn Reshan, Cobalt KH, Quantum LD, Aurene CF, were available to ship semen from. These and others are the sires of the future.

I realize registration for shipping is expensive, but there must be way to recoup the costs, and perhaps a collective effort can be undertaken, will several breeders cooperating to pool funding and get stallions of common interest frozen or registered to ship. It is well worth the effort, and there is no other way forward for the future of the asil Arabian in the USA.

66 Responses to “A plea”

  1. Edouard,

    We bred Lili Marlene to Bah-Rani this year via shipped semen, his first such effort. His semen quality was excellent,and she settled with the first insemination.

    Best wishes,

    Fred Mimmack

  2. Fred, congratulations. You know your actions are incredibly important because there is no other breed of horse that is only descended from the proto hotblood, one of the 4 distinctive types found by early man after the last ice age. Everything else- and I mean everything Tarpans, Drafts and forest horses are either extinct or so cross bred it would take several lifetimes to backbreed them into existence again. That is why arabians that have tarpan and turkoman, and saddlebred, and thoroughbred should be listed by the registries. And also why arabians that we know or can reasonably assume do not have foreign blood should also be listed and preserved. And to me what is what Al Khamsa and this blog and preservation breeding is all about.
    Best wishes
    Bruce Peek

  3. Thanks Jenny, Jackson,Edouard.
    I do say TOO much though,I blame being Welsh, we almost all talk too much! 🙂
    Jackson do you mean do I do visits on my horses?
    If so…yes it has happened…when we have deep snow!!
    If you mean to horses, we do yes and we have a huge number of purebreds on our books but the only Asils are SE.

  4. Lisa,

    “I have no right to comment,” I was simply making light of your comment, “Pure Bred not Asil.” Wondering what, since you have only Pure Bred’s,and have no right to comment, does this mean you have really no right to comment as a vet.

    Yet, now I feel I had no right to make light as you took my comment serious. Perhaps, you too, were making light of my comments? Any way, we all take too serious, our own feelings and writings.

    You can quote me. JMH

  5. Doh,I was not making light, just being stupid! I thought that I had not understood you properly but felt rude not replying at all,now I understand,that was a sweet thing to say,thanks Jackson!

  6. Will people stop with the size thing allready?! The most athletic horse and rider combination in the last 75 years were Mark Todd and Charisma. Todd stood 6 foot 5, and Charisma was supposedly 15.3. They won the individual gold medals in 3 day eventing in 1988 and 1992… Most people, meaning everyone except those standing over 6 foot 2 need nothing taller than 15.2 even with a close contact saddle. With a stock saddle 15 hands is fine with me and i’m 6-2 with a 34 &1/2 inch inseam.. People don’t need or even want FEI level horses. The horse of average confirmation and size if properly trained and ridden, will always be able to perform to a level far higher than the average rider.
    Sorry for the soapbox
    Best wishes
    Bruce Peek

  7. Any room on the soap box for me?
    Couldn’t agree with you more.

  8. @Bruce: you confirm my point – Arabians of +15 hands are marketable, if you breed 14hands Arabians you limit selling your offspring to small people and kids.

    I’m 6 feet and a bit (or 182 cm) – I guess like a quarter of the western male population. Anything under 15 hands is simply uncomfortable for me, regardless how great movers they are.

    I have a stallion around 15 hands – 150 cm (little bit smaller), he can do but is not ideal. Have however also had a 15 hands gelding who was more comfortable for me than a 16hands stallion

    I have had a 16 hands – 162 cm (asil) stallion as mentioned and currently have a 16 hands – 163 cm and growing (asil) gelding – yet the perfect size for me is around 15.3 hands – 155-158 cm, this is always feels like perfect

  9. Patrick: I’d be willing to bet that the use of a solid framed jinetta balanced saddle would make the 15 hand horse a more comfortable ride for you- it does for me. The advantage here of course is that I get to ride horses ( waho arabs) who are cheap to purchase due to their abundance. The framed saddle holds the rider a couple of inches above the horses spine and back thus effectively lengthening the size of the seat thereby making the ride more comfortable. The close contact saddle however, usually because of frequently poor fit, dumps the riders weight either on top of the spine or so close to it that it impinges- rubs- on the spine thus constantly firing the nerves of the spine and keeping the muscles flexed. Constantly flexed muscles prevents the horse from lifting his back and slightly bending all of the joints in his legs, back, and neck. If the bones bend as opposed to being locked the impact of every stride is absorbed rather than magnified. This, the worlds cavalries have found, is what enables properly ridden horses to stay sound into advanced old age.
    As for the size thing, the head of MSU’s arab breeding operation John Scheile(sp) once told me about getting a 15.3 hand 3 year old gelding by crossing a linebred Nazeer horse with a line bred Bask horse. So I would suspect that the way to get the size is to do the outcrossing.
    Best wishes
    Bruce Peek

  10. I agree with you, Bruce. I’ve seen it many times. Size often comes from outcrossing, but not in every instance. What does come through in almost every case, though, is some aspect of hybrid vigor, which is not always a good thing. You probably don’t want, for instance, a more ‘vigorous’ bad disposition!

  11. (I think the point re Charisma was that if a 6’5” man on 15.3 tb can fly round the likes of BADMINTON etc,the rest of us, mostly not 6’5” and not competing at 4*, will probably have all the fun we ever want on something a little smaller, not that we need 15.3 hh Arabs?!)
    I would note that many really big Arabs make up a lot of their height in having long cannons, not something that I would look for in a horse.
    My current riding Arab is just under 15.2,my previous (sadly deceased) just under 14.3, both equally lovely to ride. 🙂

  12. Another way to get extra height is to open out the joint angles in the legs. The more closed angles of the classic Arabian type gives a lot of power and spring and support to the ride.

  13. Great discussions, I really enjoy reading all of the different viewpoints.
    On the thoughts of proposed use of Asil/AK stallions through any type of AI, can… have merit.
    We have & will continue to freeze stallions, but not for INT’L use, due to the fact that US stallions have to go into quarantine for 3 months SEPT- DEC(here), plus ..the INT’L semen frozen MUST be kept at an approved USDA Vet/facility, not at home where mine is in my tanks.
    Let’s put it this way… We do AI & still hand breed mares here, and keep stallions & mares, and foals here, but .. IF anything should happen to any of the stallions, I sleep better at night knowing…
    I CAN>> at any time in MY lifetime( or to those I share with or leave to in my will), as long as I maintain my tanks, USE any stallion in the tanks… whenever that perfect mare begging for that blood arrives, needs it or grows up.

    We love our stallions, and ride and show SOME of our stallions/horses. We just can’t operate on our own, a farm, with all of the other animals we raise, crops, fixing fences, or anything else, & afford to be out (whatever activity) every weekend. Some years we go for it and go to many, while other years we might go to TWO, or NONE.
    Who gets to stay home on the farm?
    We can take six and that is not an undertaking I like for ME, alone, not only to care for, but to prep. We have gone to Open shows, Dressage, Hunter Pace, Team Penning, CTR- or to the purebred Arab shows and have taken a whole trailer full(6), and not gotten stalls in the stables…. all with 2 stallions in partitioned trailer stalls next to mares, half doors open, in a grass parking area next to other trailers for the day, with one or two horses in them. Our “neighbors” and “passers-by” ALL day long, would make comments about how well our horses behaved, as many had to be unloaded to get to the next horse going in the ring, and re loaded, so this went on all day, stallions included. MANY could not believe that the stallions(2) could be near each other, much less next to mares or youngsters. Did we win? We placed in most of the classes, but that was not why we went. People with PURE BRED Arabs DO need to see the AK/Asil horses, as they are. People from the audience do come over to hear what they are. We are really NOT trying to look like the others, but we do see the judges’s dilemma’s in his “picks” as he has to look CONSISTENT in what he chooses, and that is what is presented. THEM & US. There are more of THEM that the judges are used to seeing. AK has only about 3% of the entire Arabian population and fewer than that SHOW or go anywhere. I do not know how to explain this to Patrick (in particular), but they are not the SAME as General List(here in US)purebred Arabians, who can be mainly Tankersley “Crabbet” breeding(MD-PA area) or Spanish or Polish blends.

    I will share this with you. Years ago we took Salil Ibn Iliad (Iliad x LD Rubic) AK /Asil “sharps” tf *NUFOUD group, to a Pure Bred Arab show, and we entered him in the 3yr old stallion breeding class. Our daughter Megan, then 15, presented him, and he was a PERFECT gentleman the whole time he was in the ring, while ..I might add, the others looked H-U-G-E (all over), as if they were in the wrong class, as they looked fully mature, and were fractious and disobedient to their handlers and downright hostile while being presented. Salil stood well, presented well, went into the trot well, and came back to the judge and looked him in the eye, as if to say “Aren’t you proud of me and pet me?”. The super charged stallion, whose gaits could not be seen due to his romping over his handler, won. On the way out of the ring, Megan was stopped by the show ring steward who asked, because of Salil’s irridescent SHINING brilliant red bay coat, “Is he a son of Khemosabi>?” to which Megan proudly replied, “NO, this one is a REAL Arabian.” as she exited. Maybe Eduoard will post pics I sent him of Salil, so you can see him.
    If we take 6 and go into ONE class, then a judge is looking at horses .. more or less .. of the same TYPE, as a majority, unless there are lots of entries, so a judge might see “merit” in what is presented. OR, as Patrick might note, based on previous postings, they should all be culled, based on the fact that the judge could come from “anywhere” and is used to seeing “X__POLISH blend” horses and these do not look like THOSE !
    Europe (other places) is different, clearly, in all breeding aspects of horses; from selection, proving stallions through performance, inspections, breeding licenses, evaluation of foals from newly approved stallions and it is not the SELECTION of foals, but ALL of them, no hidden ones, where a stallion license can be pulled… through mares, and culling… meaning NOT approved into the studbook when fillies turn 3. We are used to that type of practice, here in the US, in our Trakehner warmblood program using our purebred Arabians APPROVED through inspection. I still believe that Megan’s AK/ Asil mare, 1986 Hart Asheera(Rafeer RSI x Nisrs Asha)tf *Wadduda, is the ONLY Al Khamsa/Asil Arabian mare inspected & Approved in the Trakehner Stud Book. Asheera’s Anglo Arabian daughter is also approved in the Trakehner Stud book, and is Asheera’s only filly.

    In purebred Arabians, here, there IS no “stamp of approval” on stallions, to say they CAN be permitted to breed, or mares, or which colts should be gelded, by a “body” of “anybody”.
    To think more about experiences shared here.. Jackson’s or RJ’s, or RLH, Eduoard’s, Joe’s, Patrick’s or Charles’ views… there are going to be differences, and that is good, since we are all looking with a different “eye” of likes and expectations, which I don’t think is a BAD thing. Each one of us has to look at what we feed every day & ride.
    A person came here for a tour, and we walked around fields and looked at horses. At the end of the tour, this man looked puzzled and said, “All of your horses have “WITHERS.”
    Looking at him, I thought, I GUESS he has horses that DON’T! I don’t LIKE to use a crupper, but HAVE, on occasion– because I don’t like to dismount to move my saddle when climbing up & down mountains… and probably my “EYE” selects for horses that HAVE withers. Most of my horses have longer ears, too, but does not make them MULES. Am I going to breed for the “EARS”? NOT LIKELY.

    A longtime breeder, whose opinion I respect, told me many years ago, she saw AK/Asil horses she had bred, 10-15 years later, who had completed levels of awards in our US Arabian show system, that she GELDED ! She told me that MANY times she GELDED the wrong horses. Yes, those geldings are the “Ambassadors” who go out and do things, & are most apt to be bought by those who show in anything. The young colts she kept as stallions did not end up being quite the horses she found in her gelded stock she sold. So it is difficult to KNOW which ones to CULL, and when… even at 3 or 4 years, you might not know it all. Who can keep that many colts as stallions to know? I am getting around to saying that I CAN freeze semen on a 4 year old stallion I LIKE, and still geld him, after getting what I feel is ENOUGH frozen, and use the frozen semen here in the US(or Canada with proper permits now) and it does NOT cost that much to do, frankly, as compared to INT’L freezing where the stallion has to go through many tests, freezes and then those straws thawed & tested, all while in 3 months quarantine at a USDA station… PLUS… now with better methods and technology, a stallion can be COLLECTED FRESH, and then SENT to be frozen, just as if sending to a mare, or have a Mobile Lab come to the farm, and freeze several stallions, which is what we do.
    Here’s a thought… with proper preparation, which I won’t go into here, you can GELD a 3-4 yr old colt, and SEND “what is removed”, in a fresh semen shipping container and have THAT frozen if you only want ONE collection to have, which can be from 5-20 breeding doses by the way …for the “just in case” …idea<>… after the fact… you find you should not have gelded him. You can always use it on a MUSTANG… which is BOUND to make an improvement… AND have a useable registerable HALF ARABIAN. Isn’t breeding mustangs with his ASIL’s what ALBERT HARRIS used to do in his PARTBRED program?

    The semen will be here 40,000 years if the tank is maintained, so think of the future…..certainly use what stallion is here NOW, but, in fact, someone else will be the “keeper” later, and they might regret you did NOT freeze “thus and so” stallion.

    more to ponder on ….
    and, Eduoard, or others who might want to use Salil Ibn Iliad before he is gone??? He is near Myrtle Beach, SC, with Pam Baker, and very healthy. I have other AK/Asil stallions of the AK SELMA I, H-S strain & both are homozygous black sired by Babson stallions, Faydin & BW Fadl Tali by Faydin. I can lease, & transport, too, if that is the way you want to go. Send me an email.
    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/msf+hamdani+simri
    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/msf+hamdani+nakhda
    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/salil+ibn+iliad
    Here is a perfect example of what we like to see<>…
    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/msf+rais (look at the photo)
    Salil Ibn Iliad x Hart Asheera -gelding
    sold at age 4 (under saddle one year) to a little girl, aged 8, who mopped up in open hunter, judged trail ride, hunter pace, CTR, Arabian Sporthorse, Open Sporthorse, Polo Cross & PC Games, Pony Club Team to GOLD Medal at KY Rolex team PC competition, and LOVED. He was the ONLY Arabian in the stable, and ended up beating them all when they went to shows. They will keep him forever, as she is now in college & mom teaches students on him. There- Patrick, is a $30,000 or more AK .. Uh-OH, just barely AT 14.2hh gelding (I know because they were worried about his PONY card).
    Best wishes to all <<~~~

  14. ran across this post surfing google. I use to have Kellogg heavy Davenport bred mares. and Egyptian bred stallions. This is back in the last 70s and early 80s. Right before and during the big tax bust. I remember Monsoon, Sir, etc. I am now in the Colonial Spanish world. Every group within that world is at risk in terms of viable breeding number save the Paso Fino and Peruvian Paso. Even in those breeds the preservationists of old lineages are few and far between.

    What some of us have done is create a Fellowship. IN the Fellowship we are organizing such things as a Spanish Colonial Conquest Influenced breed, strain, variety database. We have a declaration by which we conduct ourselves that declares brother hood and sisterhood. We are collecting all our DNA reports or every breed… etc. many things. part of our function is to create funds for preservation. We plan to be a membership fee free organization. You might look at a social network like Ning.com where you can pool together, create E shops, gifts for purchase, pay per views. etc to begin to raise funds towards your semen bank goals. a semen bank is easy to maintain as well – one or two time collections for frozen capable stallion can keep cost down for owners. Just some ideas to share, As I feel your frustration as a once lover of the old straight lines Id love to see them preserved.

  15. that’s great advice, Susan. I will gladly take it.

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