About an ongoing discussion on straightegyptians.com

By Edouard Aldahdah

Posted on September 10th, 2008 in France, Morocco, Tunisia

Looks like my recent series of entries on Tunisian Asil Arabian horses has sparked a good discussion on Straightegyptians.com, which by the way, I am not subscribed to. I wish I had enough time to contribute to it, but there are only so many hours in a day, and besides, I am pretty certain my boss would fire me..

Still, a couple points on that discussion, if I may: the horses of the stud of La Lizonne are from Moroccan lines, not Tunisian. The stallion El Sudd El Aaly (Nazeer x Lateefa), a full brother of SF ibn Nazeer (Lateef) was sent from Egypt to the King of Morocco as a gift, and never went to Tunisia.. 

Also, I have promised the readers of this blog an aricle on the Denouste issue, which I hope will shed some light on the status of this horse (i.e., whether he is Asil or not, which would have many implications on the status of many French and North African Arabians). This article in under preparatin, so stay tuned.

10 Responses to “About an ongoing discussion on straightegyptians.com”

  1. on Straight Egyptians

    In the Raswan Index volumeII plate 143 ,he speaks of the Ali Pasha manuscript that he managed to copy with his camera:
    “Upper page #1 of sheet #1 until “Lower page #4 of sheet #II” are the results of the sale of the famous abbas pasha sale.I translated some of it with the help of Sheikh Mohamed Zuhair of the Al Azhar uneversity.finding astonishing things ie Ferdinand de Lesseps of the Suez canal had bought a couple of horses .but this is not the subject

    on the page following plate 146 there is a page in Arabic numbered “B1 belongs to the beginning of book B”
    on page B2, I translate from the Arabic title
    “book keeping of the asil horses and mares years 1894/1895 ”
    on page B3 to my surprise there was ,under born in 1895:
    #49 chesnut foal son of the English mare named Zeknib her father is the chesnut Kuheilan Ajuz
    #50 chesnut foal his mother is the english mare called the rose his father is the Hamdani Semri
    #51 chesnut foal son of the english mare Mekit his father is Dahmane
    #54 chesnut foal son of the Hamdani Semri and the English mare “unreadble”

    question :why anglo-arab horses are registred under “Asil foals born in 1895 “?
    What happened with them?
    were they used for reproduction as Asil Horses on Asil mares?
    If so who are their gets?
    are they registred as Asil horses?

  2. Those pages, which are reproduced, at least in part, in the Raswan Index, are a real source of confusion. I’m not sure that anyone knows what stud they refer to. It is certainly clear that there were many horses in Egypt around the turn of the last century that were not asil Arabian horses. I have never seen anything claiming that they were used as asil Arabian horses.

  3. Egypt never had asil horses all of them were imported .These kind of horses (the Asil ones)represented a very very small part of the equine population of Egypt.
    the egyptian people never was a horse breeding one like the people of “bilad es sham” (Palestine,Jordan ,Syria ,Lebanon)or Irak.Horse were maltreated,remember the Australian cavlry men from the Allenby army, who at the end of World WarI, refused to give their Australian Walers as a gift to the Egyptian people(seiing who Egyptian are treating their horses) and prefered to kill them instead (2000 horses),while in Irak the 2 British cavalry regiment gave their horse to the Iraqi pepole.Until now the streets of Cairo are full of poor maltreated horses at the point that a British association founded a Hospital for them.

    the title is ” Index of the Assayel males “unmounted” and “mounteds” and broodmares from assayel… starting 189.. and this in the stables of his excellency Abd el Halim Pasha (Bishr)?

    the most important Jeanne is that anglo-arabs foals are registred under “Assayel”which is the pural of Asil.If the Pasha was considering these horses Asil he can later mate them with Asil mares and register their products as Asil.All in “Bona fe” (without any malice).Is the same breeding politic was followed by other Pasha’s? maybe for them mating two Asil horses will give an Asil horse considering that for them a Thouroughbred is as Asil (Pure) than an Arab, this is the question.
    One should remember that Egypt was under British domination at that time and the British always considered their Thouroughbred horses as the best and the purest in the world,and that many of the Egyptian Pashas were not from Arab origin but from Turkish and Albanian origin,even the royal family was from Montenegro, meaning by that the Arab tradition of the “Asil”horse “the Bedouin way” was of little importance to a lot of them,because it was not in their culture or tradition.

    The most important is of all this:Considering these anglos as Asil did they cross them with “”Assayel mares” and register the product as Asil?the other way is true the female product of an Thouroughbred mare and an Arab stallion must be also registred as Asil and what if she was crossed with an Arab stallion?

    According to WAHO Skworonek has 9 non-Arab ancestors and with all this 9 ancestors he was still producing wonderful horses.

  4. Joe, I agree with you, Egypt didn’t have the equivalent of the nomadic Bedouin’s asil desert bred horse. That’s why they gleaned what they could, understanding its worth as bloodstock.

    The following doesn’t answer your question, however it makes for interesting reading, given the timeline.

    In the Abbas Pasha Manuscript (Sherif, Forbis 1993) there are notes from the French vet, Dr P N Hamont, who was given ‘carte blanche’ over Ali Pasha’s horse studs in Egypt. Within his notes he writes that there were crosses done of asil over “degenerative” Egyptian mares. These crosses were continually back crossed to Nejd stallions for at least “14 or 15 years”. Resulting fillies being bred to Nejd stallions. The notes only mention this cross. These times were early to mid 1800s.

    Abbas Pasha II inherited his grandfather’s stud. What the manuscript fails to account for, in Abbas Pasha’s quest for the most beautiful asil individuals from the nomadic Bedouin, is whether he kept separate breeding programs. On his death, his place was reportedly something of a mess once the servants had finished their rampage.

    Thoughts on these comments would be appreciated as well.

  5. I understand, Joe. I am just saying that I do not know who this pasha is, nor what became of his horses.

  6. Thank you ,Diane.
    Your remark about Hamon reminds me what lady Blunt said when visiting Count Potocki Antoniny stud in 1884;speaking about the horses of mixed breeding:
    “Lady Anne doubtless voiced her criticisms of the mixed-breeding to her host for at some stage Potocki eliminated these lines completely. The trouble seems to have arisen originally with a director of the stud, one Brzizcki, an inheritance from Prince Roman Sanguszko the Elder and, Lady Anne gathered “rather an incubus..Neither remembering about nor even always obeying orders”. Britta Fahlgren “”The Arabian Horses Families of Poland” page N5
    I imagine that important people like the Polish Counts and Princes or the Egyptian Pashas not always had the time to supervise directly their stud, leaving it to directors or wakils, and what if the wakil did not follow the Pasha’s orders or make a mistake? The result: the horse pedigree is wrong.
    An what if there was one or more “Brzizcki” in the Pashas studs?
    In a French blog I read the following:
    Sujet: Re: Les pépites d’Or oubliées…Histoire des lignées Francaises Ven 30 Mai – 17:41
    ________________________________________
    au fait vous voulez un cas précis : Ba Toustem de père anglo.. le jour ou Bacchantara est allée à la sailli Djerba Oua avait une baisse de régime et l’étalonnier a passé un anglo, tout le mond le savait…
    _________________
    http://www.orient-arabians.com

    Quick translation:” When Bacchantara went to be covered by Djerba Oua ,the horse was sick ,so the man in charge covered her by an Anglo everybody knew this…”
    Ba Toustem is registered as Arab in the French Stud Book.

    The crossing of degenerative Egyptian mares with desert stallions for 15 years remembers us of the Polish practice.( both the Poles and the Hungarian called these horses “full blooded Arabs” not Pure Bred Arabs).

    What happened of the product of these mares?
    Where they considered Asil ? Maybe we have horses of their line considered today as “Straight Egyptians”

    What happened to the Anglo-Arab stallions and mares considered as “Assayel’’ by the book keeper of this “Abd el Halim Pasha”?

    Is this practice was common in the Pasha’s studs?
    We don’t know how the mating was performed in these Pasha’s studs, who were the witnesses?

    i.e.: in any small village in “Bilad es Sham” and Iraq each time an Asil mare was mated there were witnesses who later signed the Hujja.

  7. To Jeanne
    According to the Raswan Index Volume II plate 143, I quote:
    “On the following 28 pages I give you the complete and original Ali Pasha Manuscript as I re-discovered it in Egypt.
    I dedicate it to my friends in Egypt as atoken of my love and esteem for the work they have done (and are doing right now) to sdave the authentic (Asil) Arabian blood in their historic Goverment studfarm near Cairo.”
    the pages I have mentionned are from these 28 pages.

  8. I understand that Raswan wrote that, but it doesn’t really fit with the translation I have seen of the text. I just don’t know what to make of it. Obviously, some of the pashas were more reliable regarding asil breeding than others, but what this text is, I just don’t know.

  9. The conclusion of all this is that maybe some “Straight Egyptians” are not so straight according to what we just learn,and that El Ghadaa can be as “Straight” as many of their horses

  10. This Pasha could have been “Abdel halim the youngest of Mohamed Aly son’s from his second wife Mahduvran Hanim”.

    As for breeding Anglo-Arabs you know that it was a common practice in Egypt, under the supervision of “the Horse Breeding Commission” which had been active since 1892 this comission was replaced by the breeding section of the RAS in 1908 .(this policy was stopped in 1914)
    The Khedive Abbas Pasha Hilmi II used to bred Thouroughbreds togheter with Arabs.

    Lady Blunt in Nov.1909 exchanged the mare Sabah,a Kuhaila Memrahieh, purchased from Prince Yusef Kemal,without having covered her. Why?
    I quote lady Blunt
    “Handsome as Sabah is growing and well as she moves,she is not up to the mark in Arabian form,there is too much of the racing stamp in her form”
    (the Arabian horse families of Egypt.Colin Pearson page 142.)
    Was it a “Brzizcki” at Prince Yusef Kemal stables?
    were all the breeders of that time with the “eye”of the Lady?

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