Appalling statistics on newborn asil Arabians in the USA
I was talking to Anita Enander yesterday, and she alerted me to an alarming statistical trend in the numbers of live births of non-Straight Egyptian, Al Khamsa Arabians in the USA, over the past few years. Just glance at the graph below:
It plots the number of non-Egyptian, Al Khamsa foals born in each of the years 2003 (126 live registered foals); 2004 (140); 2005 (104); 2006 (92); 2007 (70) and 2008 (60). You can see that the number of births has dropped by half in 5 years. If this alarming trend does not abate (and I feel pessimistic about this), then in ten years’ time, by 2020, there will only 15 births of asil, Al Khamsa foals that are not Straight Egyptians. In other words, non-Egpytian asil breeding is on the brink of extinction.
This trend gets even more alarming if you consider that the vast majority of these foals belong to three relatively organized, well-established and recognized breeding groups within Al Khamsa, involving more than a dozen breeders each: the Davenport group (roughly, asil horses from Syria tracing back to imports by Homer Davenport to the USA in 1906); the BLUE STAR group (roughly, asil horses from Saudi Arabia brought back by US expatatriates in the oil-rich kingdom in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s; and the Sahanad group (roughly, asil horses tracing in tail female to the black Saqlawiyah al-‘Abd ” Davenport” mare Sahanad, combined by Egyptian lines). Anita reminds me that the group of breeders of Sahanad horses still puts 8-10 foals on the ground each year, mostly blacks.
In other words, all the other bloodlines, and there are dozens of them, old, precious, treasured, asil lines are not being bred anymore, and will disappear in the short-term: the *Samirah tail female (Hamdani), the *Nufoud tail female (Kuhaylan), the Naomi tail female (Ma’naghi), the non-Davenport *Werdi tail female (Kuhaylan Krush, through Kapiti), the non-Davenport *Urfa tail female (Saqlawi al-Abd, through Sagitta and others), the non-Egyptian Rodania tail female (Kuhaylan Rodan, through Baba, Gisela, Suebe and others), the Basilisk tail female (Saqlawi Ibn Dirri, through Rabanna, but also Slipper), the Selma tail female (Hamdani, through Simawa), the Ferida tail female (Ma’naghi), the *Layya tail female, the *Mirage horses, the *Al-Mashoor horses, the *Mohalhil horses, etc, etc. Most of these are already hanging by a thread, anyway..
Anyone can replicate the above findings by the way, if they have Datasource. Just take the total number of births of registered foals that qualify as “Al Khamsa” in a given year, take the total number of birth that qualify as “Straight Egpytian”, for that same year, and substract the second number from the first (the “Straight Egyptian” label roughly being a subset of the “Al Khamsa” denomination, since Al Khamsa includes the overwhelming majority of the horses which the Pyramid Society labels as Straight Egpytians, but Al Khamsa includes other asils too).
I don’t know of any Davenport breeders who are definitely breeding a mare this year. I’m not. I have to feed the ones already on the ground. I have one young mare under saddle I’m hoping to sell, but in the current market, that’s more of a long shot than one would hope.
As has been said before, we need to grow breeders and owners, as well as breeding horses, or the horses will have no future.
I am appropriately appalled…
Are you going to breed your mare? one of the finest in the world of bradley-davenport horses? we have a stallion, morika and I, be a great match. Quality is always better then quanity.
we are here in Taos, new mexico
I am planning to breed Jadestone Ivey again this year, as she is getting older, and I still want a filly from her. I would like to also breed Jadestone’s daughter MC Reannan — both to mares to Princey ( Prince Lycoris ). However, these are horses I would plan to keep myself.
These are difficult times for raising horses! The bad economy, and the health care crisis are taking a lot of people down–
The elderly mare I lost last spring ( DB Darmal ), along with her unborn foal by Princey, while not an Al Khamsa mare, WAS a tail female Ferida mare, with lines to *Al Mashoor, *Roda, and Sunny Acres Papaya–she was a lovely mare1
Doris
I have BLUE STARS and only had one foal in 2009, none this year and not sure if I’ll breed any for next year or not. I have several old rare mares and two youngish performance proven unreplaced mares, but I can’t take a chance of the barn getting too full to take care of. I’d sure love the economy to pick back up.
For a change, I can honestly say we are doing our part. We have 5-6 foals expected over the next few months and will be breeding for next year as well. I have not decided yet which mares, a lot will depend on what we see in this crop, except that we are definitely breeding our Babson/Turfa mare and at least 4 Davenports.
We have some stunning youngsters, yearlings and 2 yo geldings, that are developing into outstanding sport horse prospects. We are lucky in being able to keep them around long enough for them to mature into riding horses.
Pamela klein,
your correct, you are doing alot! good luck with your foals.
Indeed, Jackson, Wisteria will be bred next and so will Javera Chelsea, on lease from Doris Park. I plan to use a non-Davenport stallion on Wisteria, to breed a Combined Source foal. We need to find a name more ‘positive’ than “Combined Source”.
We are expecting 2 foals this year: our CSA Jerusha, Ma’aneghi through Naomi is due in a few weeks, and CSA Amira Kista Ma’aneghi through Ferida, who is back in OH with Carol Stone is also due soon. Both were bred to RB Bellagio, also Ma’aneghi Hadruj.
Each breeder of these lines ought to think of what will happen to his/her breeding if he/she can’t continue breeding for any reason, and perhaps mentor a younger breeder who’d take over.
In 2007 I produced 1/7th of that number. Now I’m unable to continue breeding and the horses are being dispersed.
Another group not listed, but also in danger, are the Sheykh Obeyd Arabians carrying Rabanna and the Doyle horses. They don’t qualify as Straight Egyptian either and are their own unique little subset.
I posed this question the other day: If Rabanna and the Doyles were accepted by the Pyramid Society, would that make them more likely to breed on in a Sheykh Obeyd SE program, or would they be absorbed into an SE program and be lost to SO? Either way, they are liable to die out, which is a share as many are excellent and worthy individuals.
Oops…should have said ‘which is a SHAME as many are excellent and worthy individuals. My brain is literate, even if my fingers aren’t!
Two comments: Anyone can verify these numbers by searching for the horses that are both AK and SE and then search on AK-only and subtract the difference. If you look for SE-only, you will get a few foals, 40-70 per year, that are SE but not AK (principally those with the Tahawi horses). So to get at the true AK/non-SE you have to be sure you’ve excluded the SE/not AK foals.
Second, Sheila, your Rabanna horses are indeed included in the AK/non-SE numbers and were a notable group that should be listed with the Davenport, Blue Star, and Sahanad groups (I failed to discuss these specifically with Edouard). However, as you’ve noted, you aren’t breeding much because of your circumstances, to we can expect the AK/non-SE numbers to fall if others don’t pic up the Rabanna group.
Anita
So the question is, how do we find the next generation of new preservation breeders? How do we find them, and then nurture them?
My answer is, for what it’s worth: let’s go hunt on the grounds of breeders of other horses: paints, palominos, Morgans, quarter horses, etc. Let’s attend their events and shows and other activities, let’s reach out to them in their publications, let’s invite th our symposia and conventions. They are a much easier target than the breeders of non asil arabians, who somehow need to accept the reality that there is something wrong with their horses before they become converts to the cause
Thanks for the clarification on how you reached these numbers Anita and thanks also for raising the entire issue in this manner too
Ok, I need to get my act together and talk to RJ about Abi…
This is definitely a place where one person can make a difference, one breeding at a time, one convert at a time.
I for one have not bred any of my mares for several years. I had hoped to breed several this years, but with new problems, I can only breed several mares this year. I plan to use the Nacona Moon [egyptain/rabanna] on one mare. I also hope to breed one davenport.
Joan is breeding for one more Mirage foal.
My question is why breed if no one wants them, except you and me.
marge
I think Marge’s question “Why breed if no one wants them, except you and me?” is definitely a valid question. Horses in general are much more of a luxury this year than even five years ago.
We have chosen to breed just one foal a year and even that could put us over the top if we don’t place some in homes.
Last year we bred a combined source filly (btw Edouard, I think we should try to find a better name!). We may accidentally get another one next year:) Pasture escape…fun was had by all.
We’ve got Davenport and Davenport/Babsons going here. But also, we are “users” of the horses and I like to keep one or two horses short of a full house because there continues to be horses that are under saddle that need to be “used” for a while for whatever reason.
It is just a tough situation today for all horses. I’ve got a gal taking a CS mare to campaign in endurance. I just want my horses out there because someday there will be a younger person will come along and if the horses aren’t there, I will miss that chance.
We attended an Arabian Horse Show in 1974 and promptly sold all our other horses to acquire an Arabian, although not AK at the time. However, the horses that appealed to me most were AK (photos in magazines and on farms close to me). Those I remember visiting were Don Conway’s Blue Stars, Lee Oellerich’s Blue Stars, Frank Hannesschlager’s Davenports, and Jan Thibeault’s Straight Babson Bah Sab. We now have several Davenport mares and stallions, combined source Sharps, and three of the Europa ancestral element. Perception GCA, Valse Triste, DC Crisana, DI Kestrel, RL Zahra Assahara (on lease from the DI), and Echo Dancing are due to foal this year.
Because someone will want them in the future, when the genetic pool narrows down so much so as to be restricted to Nazeer, Bukra, and Moniet El Nefous, and if we don’t have them, we will regret it..
We need to introduce/market the Al-Khamsa horses to Arab American community.
I have talked to some fathers and many want to have a horse for their children. But they do not know the difference between the Asil and non Asil nor how/where to keep a horse. Like pasture board versus stall board in a fancy stable with high cost. They also think that Arabian horses are very expensive.
Find a congregation near you and invite them to day of a horse learning.
Also not to forget the power of the Arab Women influence. Once one mother owns an Asil horse then her friends want the same.
I am fortunate enough to have nieces and nephews who are young enough to be trained up in the way…. I get them over the summer and the lust for horses is already hot in their little hearts. One day, all this will be theirs to squabble over and Bill and I are hopeful that we will be able to secure at least one of them to carry on our work.
I agree that we need another name for Combined Source, a name that does not imply crossbred or mutt!
Edouard, you must look at Jon Michael’s stallion, HHP Manabi. He is an outstanding horse and even carries a Davenport line on the bottom. Jon’s computer is down right now but I have photos and I am sure Anita and Ambar do as well.
Edouard, yes I hope someone will want these horses some day, but in the mean time I have to feed, care, train my 15-20 horses and then sell them for less then I have in them. Good for the buyer but not so good for me.
marge
One of the main reasons why I don’t embrace Al Khamsa fully was stated by Pamela Klein: “MUTT”. What a horrible word to use for a living, breathing royally-bred, Asil Arabian Horse. This term has been used by enthusiasts at so many different Al Khamsa-sponsored functions, be it a meeting or festival. Especially, when applied to the general list Arabian Horses, the term has the ability to send me over the edge.
PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! Refrain from using such a negative term, when speaking of such a beautiful gift from our Creator…the ARABIAN horse.
Am writing in reply/to accentuate what Jeanne said above: one person CAN make a difference, one breeding at a time, one convert at a time.
The demographics of this country have radically changed since the start of AK and more so in the last 20 years. Alas, while I admire the energies of those who can set out to visit QH, Appy, Thoroughbred, Standardbred, etc. shows, events, races with the hopes of convincing them that their horses are not as “meaningful” as our beloved AK horses, does anyone of us have that energy, really? Many, many of these breeders/people have invested zillions of dollars and countless hours of time in their horses. Do we really think we can convince them to “give that all up?” Their passions are as passionate to them as our passions are to us.
I once spoke about the importance of redefining who we “recruit” into our mission and was told, harshly, that if people can’t breed these horses, and own several, they shouldn’t own them. I disagree – STRONGLY. I still impact my co-workers, friends, associates, one person at a time, every time I invite them to come play with my beloved “equine family.” And while my situation has unfortunately changed and I won’t be able to physically handle horses for over a year (and potentially never), my passion is as strong as ever. And, the best way to affect someone new to any passion is to share your own.
We aren’t going to convert breeders, as a whole, to switch to AK horses (of any group) in large enough numbers to affect a change to these numbers. But, if we would stop trying to build farms, and instead try to build horsemen and women, one at a time, even if they have to board or pasture their horse, and even if they can only ever own one horse at a time, and even if they are convinced to breed on the grounds that someone else gets the foal, maybe, just maybe, there are enough of these people to help this effort. Sadly, even as I write this, I know that even this effort would require great coordination. But maybe it’s something each one of us can do, one day at a time, one person at a time, one horse at a time.
The woman who has given of her heart and hand to help me the last month, is new to AK, new to Davenports, somewhat new to horses, and is now attahed to these beloved horses. She is now committed to buying one. She can only afford one. But that’s okay.
I want to make a difference as well and though I don’t have the resources that Pamela has, or the physical abilities that all of you have, I am still passionate, and committed. I think we all see the writing on the wall; is this a good time to start thinking about other options? Oh, I better stop here – I’m starting to preach. What can each of us do together, one horse, one person at a time?
Hi everybody, allow me to introduce my self, my name is Obed Miranda. Last year as I was looking on craigslist I saw an ad about somebody in Arizona whose husband had died. She was looking for homes for the horses she couldn’t take care of anymore, they were Straight Egyptians, that sounded pretty fancy to me,and that’s how I started searching about Arabian Horses. I contacted some breeders and asked questions, read about them, found this blog, and fell in love with the magic and history of these horses. I recently bought two mares, that I want to breed this year and next year and the year after and their offspring too until I complete a herd of twenty at least, I have three kids that didn’t show any interest at first, 17, 16, and 11 years old. After two forced visits to the farm now they cant whait for the weekend to go back they not only love my mares but all the horses in the farm, now they are hooked with that special something, I call it magic of these animals.
I did put the word none on the website box
and shows as if I had one, so I don’t.
Sorry
An eloquent plea for a better name than Combined Source!
Can we not just call them Desert Bred, which they are, and get down to the details of their ancestral elements later on? I dislike using terms like Half Davenport or Babson too, especially when speaking with non-breeders because it also can be interpreted as describing a horse that is half Arabian and half something else.
Easter Sunday afternoon was spent riding our Al Khamsa Arabians. While I have a pasture full of nicely colored, tobiano Paints and several really nice Thoroughbreds, I had several people stop to ask about the beautiful horse my girls were riding. And she is a grey, Al Khamsa Arabian. Whenever I used to take them to the open feed show at our community center, my grey Arabs were always asked about. I think that taking them out where they can be compared to other breeds works well and is a wonderful idea (mentioned previously by another poster). Now that the prices have come down from wanting $5000 + for a breeding horse that is not broke to ride, the horses are more available to more families. I usually just describe the horses as “Al Khamsa” and that most generally leads to more questions, that leads to a more detailed description about the wonderful blood they carry!
A horse that is described as “rare” is only a short distance from being described as “extinct” from what I have seen. The statistics given are very sad. I have often wondered why it is that the “Sraight Egyptian” has been given so much importance over “Al Khamsa”…
Bassam,
yours is a suggestion I have not heard before, but I find it intriguing. Identifying a mostly-Arab congregation near each of us would be a place to start.
In my city Alpharetta and Atlanta GA Arabs and Muslims congregate during major festivals like Eid after the month of fasting. We usually have pony ride for the kids. It would be so nice to have an Al-Khamsa horse present.
Also, there are Arabian newspaper in Arabic and English circulated in major US cities. These papers can be found in an Arabian grocery store.
Breeders can support their horse breeding by raising tasty meet sheep like Dorper sheep until the economy rebounds. There is a big shortage of sheep in the US. Muslims sacrifice sheep and/or goat during holiday. When I was in college I had no problem finding inexpensive sheep, now I have to drive many miles in order to find some sheep. Because Arabs, Muslims and Hispanics eat sheep and goat and their population is expanding. Where farmers are declining.
Bassam, Carolyn Jacobson raises Babson Arabians and lives in Alpharetta, GA. She is a big booster of AK horses and I think she would be willing to bring a horse to a festival. If you contact me off list, I can put you in touch with her.
Too bad you are not closer to Virginia, we sell sheep and meat goats when we have demand.
Going back several responses, I guess I have some reservations about calling our (not-straight-Egyptian) horses desert bred, because to me that means the horse is itself from the tribes.
Asil has cultural meanings I am not sure we can fulfill, and also has the relationship to the German Asil Club.
Historic or Foundation are probably too broad….
Al Khamsa covers most of them, but has a corporate meaning. This is a concept that we have struggled with for over thirty years!
Well rats! I am out of ideas for now then.
Didn’t the Egyptian horses originally come from the tribes, if you go back far enough? Just asking for information, not to argue, because I am not that familiar with them.
I saw an ad in a local paper a few weeks ago. I repeat this to others who complain about sales– AD: “FREE HORSE, SADDLE $200.00”.
Breeders over the past 100+ years in the USA have concentrated on preserving certain bloodlines. Now this generation of breeders is faced with losing all of the sacrifices those others made, if they sell to NON AK/type/strain “program” breeders who want to buy their horses. Not every person looking for a horse wants to or CAN breed. In our part of the USA, most people board or have limited resources for horse activities. They spend little for horses & enjoy riding.
We have turned down sales, including to Arabian breeders who seek our lines, but possess not one of the same pedigree/line, nor are interested in incorporating any into their programs for preservation. That means a “no sale” for us, if we are concerned with our lines dying out in the USA or elsewhere.
For our part, we have preserved every stallion here over the age of 4 through frozen semen, except Salil Ibn Iliad (Iliad x LD Rubic) rare tf *NUFOUD, so there will at least be availability to access their blood in the future.
Regarding the tf *NUFOUD horses we bred: Salil has been in SC with Pam Baker (JaPaa Arabians) since 1999 producing “AK BLEND” sons & daughters of Salil, & offers him at a low rate for breeding live cover & riding offspring, breeding mares included.
Two other tf *NUFOUD mares we bred, MSF Rubie (EA Salute x LD Rubic) 1993cm & MSF Shamis (Kahream x LD Rubic)1994cm are both non productive mares. We believe Rubie is a rare “XXY” chromosome mare, having only 1 colt at age 4, gelded & sold as a riding horse. Noone would have thought she would never be able to get pregnant again. MSF Shamis was sold after we bred her to MSF Sheikh Habib, a rare SE/SO stallion carrying *Soufian in tail male line. The folks could not wait to get Shamis to have as a riding mare for their family and were interested in her heritage & family preservation. The foal was a colt, AEP Kamar, and came back to us and is now in an “AK BLEND” program in NE PA with Pat & Monica Respet producing AK foals occasionally. That was the first & last foal Shamis has had, and is 10 miles from me. That is how things happen.
Some of our yearly ads go into NON Arabian magazines, such as the HORSE ILLUSTRATED magazine. We had interesting calls from Arab “country” people here in the USA, who told me plenty of stories about horses, who are also here in the USA from their countries, but not “registered with the AHA”…. including Syria, who were thrilled to talk about their Arab horses and happy to find other ASIL Arabians.
We need others to take over a few of our “rare” AK groups too, as we will retire from breeding in a few years. We have several special Rabanna SO’s, with Doyle blood, not SE as well as Doyle ES/Heirloom/ El Deree & SE SO, plus our SELMA I Hamdani Simri family group of 2 stallions & 6 mares.
I agree with Sheila, in that, if the Pyramid Society were to accept Doyle’s & Rabanna as SE, the focus of most programs today is on the SE extreme exotic, so I do think they would be lost to “SE” breeding families.
We have had discussions with AK breeders who know others who have NOT registered foals (yet or ever, if colts) so the “actual foaled vs. registered foal” numbers for the past several years are not the same. It might catch up eventually, to see there are more than are listed now on datasource.
We have two pending from ’09, one SE Sired “AK BLEND” filly, a Hamdani Simriyah (SELMA I) & a SE/SO AK filly. Chalk one up for each catagory from us.
If quality is what it is about, then one way of culling is to wait on registration, so noone sees/knows of the bad ones.
“A” SE AK stallion was imported and has about 10 SE foals -ZERO registered from ’08 & 3 in ’09. Other mare owners who bred to that stallion have the 3 ’09 registered (completed)SE foals. The stallion owners cannot control the outside mare’s foals. They are all SE AK. Time will tell which ones get registered or shown at the EE in June. The EE deadline is 4-10, or 50% late fees added 4-11. There is still time to get foals registered and be sure these are not the only ones not registered from ’08 or ’09– so all of the numbers may not be as bleak as looking right now.
I do hear that many are holding back breeding though, as the economy & health care, & jobs markets swirl.
Lesley in PA
I just found this thread and like everyone else am appalled. As you all know–or most of you..I bought an asil colt in November. He just turned two on 8 April. I am training him now and on nearly a daily basis am confronted by many who tell me to geld him. I should add that we are stabled at a well known arab farm–polish/egyptian. These horses are registered with ANICA–the “asil” organization here in Italy. My dream is to eventually breed my horse to a true asil mare when I can afford it. 🙂
But our stable is under new ownership and just today I had a very positive conversation with the new owner. I am moving v-e-r-y slowly here, but hope to educate in a non-threatening way about the true meaning and value of the word “asil.”
Someone on another thread said education was of the utmost importance and I agree. I discovered the asil Arabian while reading an article in a general horse magazine. The author was writing about Davenports. I fell in love and eventually found a Davenport (very rare) mare who, tragically, was killed just when I was ready to breed her.
At the moment I am putting together an article for an online horse magazine about Asil Arabians. The editor in chief was enthusiastic as she had no idea what an asil Arabian was. And BTW I will be looking interview a whole bunch of you.
I am just one person with one asil colt, but I am determined to make an in-road here in Italy. Could I have chosen a more difficult country in which to do so? Probably not.
I really like Edouard’s idea about reaching out to other breeds–especially Morgans. I know lots of old-type Morgan breeders back in Vermont. The difficulty in approaching Arabian breeders as Edouard noted is marked for all the reasons he stated. But a purist is purist, whatever the breed, and that implies a certain mindset that lives outside of the world driven more by commercial interests than by passion.
I also love the idea of involving the Arab communities wherever we live.
I apologize if this comment rambles. I’m knackered after spending three hours with Mandour today, mostly trying to avoid his open mouth. 🙂
Elena in Bologna
Great to hear from you Elena and I am delighted that you have at last acquired an asil horse of your own! That is wonderful and I know you will do well with him. Please send me photos.
Hi Pamela!! I read with delight your news about all your new little ones. Every once in a while I buy a super lottery tkt here and for 24 hours I have the farm of my dreams
(there actually is a place for sale near me–17 hectares) and an arriving plane full of Davenports. 🙂 I don’t have a TV, so that’s my entertainment.
Thanks for your encouragement re Mandour.
My best wishes to you and all your critters.
Elena
I just found this blog and read through, I don’t know if my mare has rare lines but she is SE AK. I am new to Arabians and was shocked at how many on the AK roster have no progeny. My mare is one of those and she is being bred to an SE AK stallion this year for her first SE AK foal. She is SCID and CA clear and I am proud to be contributing but I have to say that it’s going to be tough to pay for the stallion fees, not to mention, I’m taking my mare 12 hours from home to be bred. I am committed though and will find a way, God Willing. She was foaled in 1995 and I am determined to do right by her and have searched the past year for the right stallion for her, I hope I have chosen the right one.
Hello Cat, welcome to this blog and to the world of Arabian horses in general. Whatever the pedigree of your AK mare, and whether she is rare or not, it is always worth to continue breeding these valuable lines if one can. Who is your mare? which stallion did you pick for her?
Edouard,
With a lot of non productive thinking, “CAS Arabians”
(*Combined Asil Source)
Jackson
I just found this post again and thought I should update. My mare is HF Macarena. I thought I had found the stallion I would breed her to but the stallion owner only pasture breeds and it’s just not going to happen partly because he’s so far from home. This stallion I was considering was Kahiil in Ohio. I like the stallion Presumido Feisul who is by Kahill and my mares, sires, dam (Latifa Ladad) and I also like the El Mareekh horses but they are hard to locate breeding stallions of that line. I would sincerely appreciate any help to choose a stallion for her for 2012. I have a couple of possibilities. Arabians LTD has contacted me regarding my mare to breed to Bellagio RCA. I have considered Presumido Feisul as well but I don’t have contacts or the knowledge to make choices other than what I “like” and I know there is more to it than that. There is a local stallion, one who had been “rescued” that was from Glenloch breeding I think, Talli? He is produced a filly born this year even though he is blind in one eye, a single testicle (a stallion fight) and nearly starved to death before being rescued. I was told by a friend that he is not right for Macarena because he was too coarse and she is so refined. I was informed his lines are rare and should be preserved so I’m torn.
If it were just as simple as choosing a stallion I liked the look of or the look of his get but I feel a strong need to do a better job and I feel inadequate.