On Denouste’s dam Djaima

By Joe Achcar

Posted on July 17th, 2008 in General

Looking at Denouste’s dam we can easily understand why he looked this way at 2.This is a powerful mare, look at these shoulders and at her hidquarters, you find a lot of horses with the same head in Syria where it is called ‘arneh‘. It is not a beautiful head but does not mean at all that it is not a head of an Asil horse. 

The head of horses changes when they mature, my stallion ‘al Bark’ now 6 years old, did not have the same head at two. It is more refined now.

As for the slooping croup nearly all my (10) Asil race horses have the same croup. A slooping croup does not mean ar all that a horse is not Asil. It depends on what horse you are looking for, if it is for racing this kind of croup is more suitable, giving more power to the hindquarters.This kind of powerful horses existed in the famous horse breeding tribes and still exist today. I will scan the photo of ”Ghazwane” by ”Krush Halba” out of “Kuhaylat al-Kharass” one of the most famous Asil racehorses in Lebanon and Syria, next to him Denouste looks like a Scottsdale winner.. 

As for Denouste if, according to your information, his dam is doubtful he is definetely not Asil. You cannot juge him by his picture at two. I remember having seen a picture of him as an older horse, he looked correct to me.        

Denouste Dam

22 Responses to “On Denouste’s dam Djaima”

  1. There is a problem with the mare Kalifa, in the pedigree of Denouste. Kalifa is also in the tail female of Kann.. (Check out De Blomac’s book). But you are right that he looks better as a grown horse, except the croup, which is sloping..

  2. I’m a little bit confused ,few days ago Denouste’s pedigree was OK.
    Now there is a problem with Kalifa,which Kalifa?Kalifa 1870 or Kalifa 1845?
    Unfortunately I dont have the De Blomac’s book ,but I do have the 2 Kalifa extended pedigree until 1815.So please inform us where is the problem.
    As for the sloping croup I refuse this argument to disclassified a horse from being Asil.
    I received ‘Shaheen’as a gift from Omar Anbargi a paramount breeder in Aleppo , Shaheen grand grand dam on his maternal side is the own mare of Mujhem Ibn Meheyd and on his male line he is the son of ”zein el kheil” the Stallion of the Abd el Razzak’s ,the supreme sheikhs of the Tai tribe.
    Shaheen is an Asil”High Cast Arabian” horse.:he has a sloping croup.

  3. Unlike many other French horses (like Flipper for example), which are known have been crossed with Anglo-Arabs for racing purposes, there is no evidence that Denouste was. He appears to have been the son of Latif and Djaima. He is not an Anglo-Arab.

    However, Kalifa Sr. in Denouste’s pedigree (e.g. the mare Case) has a black hole. Many horses in the pedigrees of Kalifa Sr. do not appear anywhere in the French Studbook. We do not know who these horses are. Before we do, you cannot consider him Asil.

  4. A mare with a very sloping croup was Lady Anne Blunt’s Kasida, bred by Ali Pasha Sherif in Egypt.

  5. Thank you for the Information.
    I think that we should investigate more horses like Denouste his son Kann,and Koheilan I 1922.
    Kann sired Korej from Rixalina (Rassim x Rissla)founder of the K family in tersk ,one of Kann grand -daughters Solianka II won big races in the USSR defeating non -arab AkhalTeke,Sterlets,anglo-arab horses.This information is in the Russian stud book volI to IV.
    Koheilan I regenerated the Polish breeding after world war I and his influence is also great in the USSR.
    All this to proof that Asil horses can run and transmit better than mixed horses.
    It will be great if someone has info’s on Koheilan I 1922 bred in Babolna.according to mine he is almost 95% Asil.Thank you

  6. Joe, you know better than I do that a horse cannot be “almost 95% Asil”. It is either Asil (pure) or it is not.

  7. Thank you for the precision,I was just saying that if someone have more information on the remaining 5%.

  8. I probably have as much information as anyone on the pedigree of Koheilan I (VIII in Babolna). What part do you need?

  9. maybe the part that tells us whether he is asil or not; how about a post about him?

  10. Koheilan I was a Koheilan el Scheriff ,all his lines are from horses imported to Babolna by Von Gotschlig,Von Bruderman or by Michael el Hadad.execept on his dam side there is ”Bagdad” I quote Britta Fahlgren” he was agrey Szuejman.One story goes that young Count Juliusz Dzieduszycki met an Arab traveler in Kiev mounted on a superb stallion .Before long they had changed places,the Arabian continued his journey in the count coacj-and four with a bag of gold ducats and a silver mounted whip thrown in for good neasure while the Count continued his journey mounted on the stallion.The stallion was Bagdad OA.Others say he was bought in Lwow from the dealer Glioccho”
    Damoiseau met Glioccho in Aleppo buying horses.
    What about a post on Michael el Hadad a Lebanese born in Beit Chebab ,a village in Mount Lebanon 10 km far from my own village,who ended his life as Rittmeister of Babolna,buying one of the most important horses of this world famous stud like Koheilan el Adjuze and O’Bajan

  11. The pedigree of Koheilan I 1922 goes back to Babolna and the desert in all lines and is even verified by Ursula Guttman. Which 5% do you consider doubtful?

  12. Hi Britta, I think Joe was referring to the stallion Bagdad (Cf. his next comment)

  13. Dear Britta
    great honour to have you with us, your book “The Arabian horse families of Poland” is a monument.Most of the information on Denouste ancestors that i gave, came from it.
    the only horse that i consider ”having problems” in Koheilan I pedigree is ‘Bagdad’ and the famous story of his purchasing,the other story is that he was purchased from the dealer Gliocchio.As per Gliocchio the man was really a horse trader ,Damoiseau in his book (1832) on the “de Portes mission” wrote that he met him in Aleppo in 1820 togheter with Count Rzewuski.
    Maybe you can give any new info?If it appears to be Asil we can investigate Landsknecht descendants.

    “Sven Hedin” or Kemir 1905.
    We should investigate his descendants maybe is there any Asil horse remaining.

  14. Hi Joe,

    I love your idea about a post about Michal Fadlallah el Hedad, as he seems to be a fascinating character and I have yet to read his memoirs of his expeditions.

    We interviewed the former director of Babolna, Tamas Rombaueur during his visit to Israel this past spring. Rombaeur told us that he has read what has been written about him and tried many times in vain to correct the impression that Michal Fadlallah el Hedad travelled with his father’s horses with Brudermann’s expedition to Hungary because he refused to be parted from them. Others wrote that he was a bedouin boy and more of the same.

    Rombaeur told us that Michal was from a Maronite Christian family dealing in the silk industry. He said that as a young man it was Michal’s job to collect accounts due for the family business and in doing so he stumbled upon the scene of Brudermann’s expedition, where they were readying horses for shipment back home. A horse escaped and a coin offered for its capture. Michal caught it and became interested in the Europeans, the expedition, and their ambitions and kept hanging around. He and Brudermann struck up a a good rapport and Brudermann, impressed with his intellect and character, invited him to come with them and ‘make his fortune’ in Europe. The boy’s parents agreed that this was a good idea and allowed him to go.
    When the expedition arrived in Hungary the Emperor arrived to meet them and see the horses. He asked about the boy and after hearing the explanation, formally charged Brudermann with the task of getting him properly educated.
    Is this the information you have, Joe?
    Best,
    Tzviah

  15. I read the translation from Magyar in to Arabic the souvenir of Hadad’s expedition in Iraq.In the book there is pictures of his uncles it seems to me that 3 of them (By their cloths)were Maronite priests,being a Maronite myself it was easy to recognize it.
    In his book he writes about Beirut and his family,he was not all a Bedouin or a Syrian.
    My family is originated from a small village 10 km far from Beit-Chabab Hadad’s village.All the region use to deal with pure silk including my family ,both in Sao Paulo ,Brazil and in Lebanon until 1968.
    So I think that Rombaeur infos are correct

  16. )Thank you for your kind words.
    I don’t think there is any doubt that Bagdad was desertbred, everything points in that direction. Count Dzieduszycki covered his OA mares with him and with his son and Babolna imported and used his son also. For me these facts are more convincing than a story which may or may not be true. Ursula Guttman was a thorough reseacher and in her work from 1968 she has no doubts at all about Bagdads authenticity.

  17. Nice to see that the information from Rombaeur seems to fit so well with both what you know personally and his own memoirs. Wish things were always so neat and tidy!

  18. KOHEILAN I

    Ursulla Guttman works:
    Arabian horses ,Ursulla Guttman and Carl Raswan 1955.

    The Lineage of the Polish Arabian Horses 1968

    Her books makes authorities and are cited in WAHO “Is purity the issue”
    If she considers “Bagdad as Pure so should we consider Koheilan I as Asil and investigates his gets including Landsknecht ex Soldateska maybe Britta could help?

  19. R.J. wadya think?

  20. Joe Achcar, how are you? We have changed some emails years ago …did this mare come from Arneh? I’m asking because my grandfather was born there and my great grandfather used to breed some horses. My grandfather Rachid Saliba owned and used to race the fastest filly in Arneh, and this mare was once captured by the Turks and then rescued back by my family. He left to Brazil in 1925. He knew the mare and her dam had some foals later, but he never had further information. I would like to know more about the Djaima family to see if they are related. Best regards from Rach Stud, Brazil

  21. Joe Achcar died two years ago, unfortunately.

  22. Dear Edouard,
    I’ m really sorry…
    Thank you,
    Paulo

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