I’m sorry for my late return as I was out of town,
Thank You for your noble feelings and nice words coming out from a soul full of goodness, knowledge and wisdom,It’s been a long time my dear friend, and I remember your visit to Syria with allot of joy and will always carry an image of your smiling face in my memory and I also remember your clever comments and observations ,
I completely agree with you regarding WAHO , there was no other way to bring the world together if there was no mutual recognition of stud books and purity,WAHO serves as a big Umbrella for the Arab Horse and other specialised bodies can go deeper and more specific,Thanks to great people like your country man Jay Stream and others who made it possible for the breeders of Our beloved Horse to recognize the results of each others work and to cooperate and exchange benefits,.
I’m looking forward to seeing you in Qatar and you are welcome to Syria at any time,

Basil

I’m sorry for writing back little late, I was out of town, Thank you for your comment and I appreciate your worries and concerne .As you know Syria became a WAHO member and has to comply by the rules of WAHO concerning the definition of the Arab Horse and register any Arabian who comes from a WAHO approved source in the stud book, some of these horses do not have all the information to be recognised as Asil for the traditional Arab breeder in Syria , Syrian breeders are just like any other breeders around the world,some are preservationists and some are show lovers and some are race enthusiasts,The majority however including the state stud fortunately are keen to carry on breeding the Syrian lines knowing the importance of there efforts to the future of the breed and as a continuity of the heritage, but there are others who import horses and cross breed them with Syrian Arabs to produce faster or show type horses,Rasan and Marbat,are always mentioned in the pedigrees of Syrian horses in the stud book and for Syrians it’s very essential for the Arabian horse to have a Rasan,Marbat and a clear history,I hope I was able to clarify ,.

My very best,

Basil

I admire Edourard’s passion and enthusiasm for the horse of the desert and I can see that he respects his elders while forging ahead with the same preservationist passion that we all have on behalf of this magnificent breed your ancestors have given us.

I guess I have gotten just old enough now to see over the partitions of this breed and realize its mosaic. All studbooks are a part of such mosaic and include the multicolored fabric of this very old breed. I think WAHO has a collective understanding that, like all breeds of equine, multiple generations of similar ancestry make a breed, and the Arabian qualifies for this. What WAHO cannot do is make it again “asil” as it may have been in certain places before, but it is nonetheless a pure breed of horse in the general way that all domesticated animals of long history are. All studbooks are a mosaic of the breed’s long history. That is why there are organizations like Al Khamsa, the Asil Club, the Pyramid Society and so forth. Even these cannot completely recreate the “asil” as it may have been in certain places before but, making reasonable assumptions, at least there is the desire is to preserve the core of Arabian horse heritage so that we will always be able to enjoy horses like I saw among your noble friends in Syria. Even among followers of these organizations there will be partitions of opinion but let us hope they are never built so high that we cannot see over them.

Inshallah, I look forward to seeing you Basil, at the WAHO conference in 2011 and this time I will bring my bride of 40 years who introduced me to the joy of taking care of a horse and its spirit.
Best to you,
Joe Ferriss

I have no experience with Syrian breeders and their horses whatsoever but I find it an extremely intriging fact that the descendants of the original desert warhorses got registered and can serve as potential improvers of the western Arabs.

The source of pure man in Saudi Arabia I find even more intriguing because typewise they seem to be the real equivalent of the valuable desertbreds in the famous paintings of Vernet and other 18/19th century artists.

I intend to visit Hussam al-Shimal in France when I find the time because I find him typewise also very attractive and perhaps breed a mare if semen can be shipped to Belgium.

However I’m a bit curious now that you brought WAHO into the discussion. Are you talking aboute pure Arabs to WAHO standards or pure standards as tracing to the desert tribes with known marbat as is being discussed here.

I know for instance that Nejdi Arabians in Belgium has exported a few (gorgeous) offspring of Warandes Plakat out Polish mares to Syria – don’t know if they got registered and they’re pure according to WAHO standards but definitively not asil under the ideas of this blog. I read somewhere on this blog that French racers are used over Syrian mares, I’m sure their offspring meets the WAHO standard but not …

The descendants of the old war horses are what makes the Syrian studbook so valuable – maybe an opportunity to put an old idea of the Asil Club to work and foresee space on the studbook papers for a “modern hujjah” with Marbat on the pedigrees of the ones that are really pure so that newcomers know the difference and your work can be preserved also in the future.

No insults or disrespect intented whatsoever, just eager to learn

Cheers
Patrick

We all love you, and when it comes to honesty and straight fordwardness , You are the ( world champion ),
I ask God to give you strength and good health and to see You next year in Qatar,and as the Arabs say ,the year is behind the door,

a strong hug,
Basil

This is the third time I try to reply but could not get through, I hope this time It warks.!!

Thank you very much for your comment and apology ,I do agree to disagree my dear friend and any one has the full wright to establish his personal opinion and preferences,.
Regading voluom VII of the syrian Arab Horse studbook, It would be very informative to have a look at the WAHO report on the Syrian additional horses on http://www.waho.org ,our aim was and still is to save and preseve what was left from the origenal desert bred Asils and would welcom any information or doupts (based on a proof )conserning the purity of any of the horses listed in the s.y.s.b., and I promise to take an action ,.
The majority of the people I met in our field do not feed from the Arab horse and just like you, me and Hazim, the love of the Arab horse and the heratige and culture related to it have brought us to know and respect each other , I’m proud to know you. and as per regards to my self would ( Insha’ Allah )continue my interest to work ( for )the world of Arabian horses regardless of profit and loss.

best regards and wishes,
Basil

WOW, you are alive (grin)truly miss you.Will never forget the last day at the Hotel when I got that pedigree
on El Deree, and we all witnessed and your tremendous
knowledge, and always sharing.
It was such a mental dinner for me.

Volume I indeed has a few non-asils in it, which are those imports or from it like Bahr (1986) No.5/P111 Vol.I. etc.

For me or other researchers to identify all other entries is very difficult, because I have never heard of the horses, other than those to be found in the ancestors of Asils here and abroad. This is why I said, I trust you completely and Dr Hazaim, because of your direct knowledge, your dead on honesty and straight forwardness. I feel blessed, knowing you.

Of course it was a nightmare for me trying to dezifer the entries, when ‘strains mated strains’ and the names of many horses were as such.Just look at entry No.81/P149, sire of Faisal. I tried to get a system into my recording them, so that their offspring produce falls right under their names and I think I failed somewhat. It certainly now helps that the newer entries have an actual name for the horses.

Personally I wished that another WAHO conference be held in your beautiful country and am upset that the next one is only end of 2011, when it should have been in 2010. Cant figure out their reason. Cant figure out many things now taking place. Hope I live that long.

Take good care my friend and May God bless you and yours always.

Big hugs
Hansi

I am not putting your integrity and honesty into question nor that of Hazaim, far from it. If you have been hurt by what I have written above, that was not the intention, and if so, then I apologize. I have admired the work you did and continue to do for the Arabian horse in Syria and elsewhere in the world, since I met you twenty years ago, and Hazaim is a nice guy and well meaning, God bless him. He knows the horses I am talking about, one by one. In fact, Hazaim is the one who told me about many of them!

I have my personal opinion about some of these horses, especially some of those in Volume VII, and I am entitled to it. You certainly have another opinion, and are the best placed to state it because of your first-hand involvement and knowledge. I am not an interested party and I don’t work in the world of Arabian horses, nor do I feed from its business. I will certainly write to you about the horses which I feel are a concern.

Edouard

It’s been a long time since we have had any contact !, I occasionally look at your blog and admire the time and efforts you are putting into it to make it unique with the amount of information and the history of our beloved breed,but please allow me to tell you that you have gone little too far by implementing doubts about the purity of some of the Syrian horses knowing very well the amount of efforts,knowledge, proficiency and transparency that was put into the establishment of the Syrian Arab Horse stud book which makes it very credible,Not only that ,but unfortunately you are also putting my own creditability and honesty in question !You know very well that I’m not the kind of person who would hide any information for any reason, nor Dr. Hazem and we would very much be thankful if you could tell us about the non Asil horses you know belonging to(political big shots )!, I really don’t have the time to spend on subjects that would not benefit any one or the breed and its not right and a big mistake to accuse a group of horses or people without a proof . my best regards to Hansy , Joe and to all those whom I know or don’t know but are ( birds of the feather )

I can certainly tell you which ones are certainly and absolutely asil, without a single douby, in my personal opinion, the rest need more research it does not mean they are not asil ! Email me privately.

this is terrible that because of political reasons one can not discuss a horse. How then are we to know what is Asil or not? How can the Asil breeding continue when indeed there could be known flaws?
I retraced the Volume I for the Asil Club,Germany, tried to get all accepted, other than those we both know are impure. When I could not get a reply from you we concluded that we have to take case by case, i.e. horse by horse.
As you can imagine, I am now concerned, feel if I am walking in the dark.

We discuss other horses, sometimes even throw a doubt,
come straight forward and I had hoped everybody would do this. I guess, we never stop learning, eh- the human element I mean-,

What is left in my mind now is that I have to take horses from big shots with a grain of salt.

Take good care and big hugs
Hansi

I sent you a few years ago a big package with the data of those 600 syrian horses imported into Italy. those where computer print outs.
It was a heavy package I sent via Express I think. Even mentioned this to you at the second last AK meeting in California.

I had replies from you saying that you were unable to follow through, because of Time I think, etc.etc.The package/contents is about c.10 inches thick.

I had computer crashes and losts some data, although I can reproduce it, would mean I had to do it all over again. Also the printer I then had is not working and I cant find a replacement either.

No one will tell you which Syrian horses are asil and which are not. Not Basil, not Hazaim. It is not about you trusting them or them trusting you. It is not a matter of trust. It is about politics. Some of these horses belong to political big shots and the risks are very big for everyone who says bad things about these horses. This is why nobody returns your inquiries.

Remind me which big file? It is a long time I have not received anything from you..

Forgive me, but I have to get used to this forum, where I cant directly reply to a post underneith, in this case to your reply to my post.

Remember, when I stated to you that I had gone through the entire Syrian Studbook Volume 1, found a few horses- through imports from western countries were not ASIL. You stated to me that there are others and I asked you to relinquish the names. Most likely your time did not permit to reply, but I am willing to wait.You throw doubts on some horses, such as El Samraa, Bashir Al Shakar, etc, yet you did not answer my questions. What am I to think?
Even Joe Achcar, with who I have a pleasant e-mail conversation, delightfull debates, throws me the od curb.

Personally, I have never held my emotions, feelings towards any horse, but continue to be fair, even if my foes are involved.

If you feel that many of us should take the breeding of Asil horses with a grain of salt, than what about those
in the Syrian Stud Books, etc?
Honestly, I trust Basil Jadaan with my life and also Dr Hazzaim, as especially Basil is so very well informed, so experiences that I take his word any day.that goes for Dr. Hazzaim as well.

Will we ever get all questions answered, I dont think so, because time is the element.Language barrier another. therefore, I have to continue trusting what makes sense to me, including you.

While I am on this subject, please return to me that big file on those 600 syrian imports into Italy 1821-1872
(King Emanual I and II, as Joe Achcar offered to look into it and help. It took me some time, a lot of work and expenses to take all apart, so that you could readily oversee.
What interest me mostly are those over 100 Asils exported back to Egypt in 1872,while it might answer some of my questions. I feel only a wealthy Egyptian Buyer could have been involved and it might solve some of the Inshass questions/entries. I was unable to obtain a ship’ manifest from Italy about two years ago, when I asked a friend of mine to check, as he speaks perfect Italian.So the issue rests on ice, I guess.

Take care and warm regards
Hansi

His title was not Pasha, or Bey, which are the titles usually associated with many of the political elite who exchanged horses with the King his family and the RAS: e.g., Itribi Pasha (Nabras), Abu Nafie Pasha (Nafaa), Abdul Rahman Pasha (Ibn Kawkab), Ahmed Bey Sennari, Osman Bey Sherif, etc. etc. This means SOA was not a member of the political elite

His title was not Lewa (General) like Lewa Khairi Pasha (owned of Badaouia the dam of Kheir) This means SOA was not a member of the military elite

Rather his title was Shaykh

Shaykh is a title associated with two categories of people: either people from the religious elite (e.g. the Shaykh of al Azhar mosque) or the people from the tribal elites (the leaders of tribes and the clans, Bedouins or settled). I favor the latter option in the case of SOA simply because tribes were more likely to breed horses than city clerics.

SOA could have been either from an Egyptian tribe (eg the Tahawi, eg Shaykh Abdul Hamid al Tahawi) or from an Arabian (Syrian, Jordanian, Iraqi, Saudi, etc, etc) tribe. Compare with Shaykh Fawzan al-Sabeq (former owner of Mashaan RAS) who was from Saudi Arabia.

Just a lead, using logical reasoning…

What I later began to realize is that this exchange symbolizes what was likely a scenario in times past for other horses we know little about now. Perhaps in the exchange of El Samraa to the Inshass stud both King Farouk (or his representative) and Omar Abdel Hafiz were in full understanding of this mare’s acceptability for the King’s stud. Once this was a common understanding and value, it needed nothing further written down since that would be at anyone else’s discretion later. Very much like the oral traditions of the Bedouin, the story remains knowledge as long as there are the right “keepers of the memory” around. After all the King had likely been breeding horses for his own pleasure just like his father before him, not with the idea of the industry as it is today where in some circles handlers like to hinge market values to popular acceptability.

I have been reading a lot about Egypt’s history from 1940 to 1980 lately out of curiosity and I realize the nation’s attitude and the complexities of the “Revolution” of the 1950s and the abdication of the King. It was not a time to be valuing such histories of anything associated with the King. Even other horses of the period suffered a loss of interest compared to our preservationists today. So there may well be a great deal more about El Samraa if, as Edouard says, someone can find the right “keepers of the memory” today. But realizing my personal experience described above reminds me why I value the Al Khamsa position of “reasonable assumption” and hope that it will to continue to be applied because the portion of the breed that holds true to its original cultural generators is in need of such reason.

I only see lack of information about her, which is different.

She was certainly an Arabian mare of good origins, but we just don’t know these origins because nothing was recorded. So we have to search harder.

I recognize that you and others have searched for decades, but I also recognize that little information has resulted from these searches so far.

What I am saying is that El Samraa is benefiting from the good will of many researchers who are giving the benefit of the doubt to King Faruk, and assuming that he only acquired asil horses.

The reasoning behing El Samraa is as follows: King Faruk loves asil horses and only acquires asil horses; El Samraa was acquired by him; hence El Samraa is an asil horse.

Some people are willing to accept this reasoning and make the leap of faith; I am not.

I so much appreciate your educational posts, it helps a lot.

As far as the names of the parents of El Samraa are concerned, arent there many names which discribe similar expressions? How many of the ancestors listed in the Syrian Volume can be varified by you?
I guess, we have to work on ‘trust’ and I am still convinced that the royalties in Egypt pride themselves to own Asil Arabian Horse.

To Joe Ferris

Joe, I agree with you totally.
I researched on El samraa for decadesand could not get anywhere.Edouard assumes that some of us have done nothing?
I hope not. He has an advantage of personally know many of the Bedus, has spent time with them, while you and I can only go by book entries or what we have seen in person.

I simply dislike taking a brush,there is a olot to learn, and none of us knows it all.

Personally, I never had a problem with El Samraa, and her production todate stands all on its own. If there would be a discrepancy, possibly Edouard can tell us where he could see impurity. I can see NONE! Matter of fact I recognized various features of the Syrian Asil horses I saw in many an Asil import to here.

Hopefully Edouard can get more information on this great mare
and I kind of like the translation “Daughter of the Wind”!

All take care
Hansi

First, with the abdication of King Farouk and the end of Egypt’s monarchy in 1952, the incoming regime had little if any use for the King’s horses, preferring to see some of them given to the local people for their use in pulling carts etc. There was even more disregard for the King’s possessions and personal effects. The Egyptian generals essentially shut down the Inshass stud and only a handful of individuals were sent to El Zahraa and this was through the pleading of Sayed Marei. The handwritten herdbook was woefully incomplete as a formal record. Many of the details and records on the horses were lost, possibly discarded, and those of direct memory during the days of Inshass are gone.

When he was alive, Dr. Ameen Zaher, who was for a time secretary to King Farouk, was quite emphatic that acquired horses, gifts or otherwise, that were used for breeding were Asil. That we do not have the details on some presents a problem for those of us who wish more. But for Al Khamsa’s purposes of “reasonable assumption”, I succeeded in convincing the organization to accept Beshir El Ashkar and Badria. El Samraa was “grandmothered in” from the Blue Catalog days, so was already acceptable to Al Khamsa, and no doubt Dr. Zaher’s position would have supported this.

I think it is important to remember that in times past there may have been people who knew the details that would convince them of the Asil nature of such horses as El Samraa, and once acceptable to the parties involved, there would not necessarily be the need for written record, as if they thought that it would matter for some “official” registry or stud book later. Such could have been unimportant to them. Even up to the end of Inshass there was no formal registry for all Arabians in Egypt. I was told that it took a lot of hard convincing for some Bedouin to even accept having their Asil horses identified for the stud books of Syria years later.

So it is a reality that there were no standard formalities for all horses to be nationally registered in Egypt at that time. Somewhere along the way the details of El Samraa were not paid forward in a way that makes us feel comfortable, and we have to take the leap of faith. We often have to do that in the absence of Hujaj which are rare indeed, but in the context, El Samraa was bred from by people who likely valued the original breed enough to include her as a part of it.

Carbine*gr1970
Manipuljazia ch1959 They bred a mare Castaly 1975.

I will greatly appreciate it if you can help me with these pedigrees to verify if they are asil and which strain they are.

Thank you
Mohammed

Would be great though if someone could shed some light on Barr’s case in the future…

Regards

Sandra

Regards

Sandra

By no means implying she is not asil, just saying we don’t have enough info to judge. Big difference..

this is an interesting toppic… I hope though, that you don’t start a war with it…

There are so many horses (some of them very well known and eminently respectable) that do have Sameh within their pedigree… gee, mine has him as well. No hard feelings though – my mare already has a line to Barr, which is considered to be a barb by a lot of the researchers… so what! I couldn’t care less…love that horse to death and it doesn’t really matter if she is asil or not – at least not for me!

Regards

Sandra