My endless dilemma

I still haven’t resolved a lingering dilemma that has been haunting me since I started ‘Daughter of the Wind’.  In the course of this blog’s life, I have come across a lot of precious information I did not have access to before. That’s in no small part thanks to the readers of ‘Daughter of the Wind’, most of the time through personal emails.

A lot of this information is generally positive, in the sense that it confirms the asil status of a particular line. This for instance is the case of the Tunisian desert-bred import Barr, or the Egyptian desert-bred import El Nasser, who were been outcasts for decades until they were recently rehabilitated.

Sometimes the information is negative, in the sense that it throws the asil status of a particular line into serious doubt. In such cases what I usually do is try to go back to first-hand sources to verifiy it, or cross-check it with another indepedent sources. Sometimes things are clarified and everything falls back into place (ie, the line is asil). Sometimes, more research is needed to disentangle rumor from reality and the horse remains in limbo, at least as far I am concerned. Sometimes, the suspicion is confirmed and the horse is clearly not asil. And that’s where the headaches (and the dilemmas) start.

What should I do in these cases? Shut up and keep quiet? Keep saying only the positive things and play ”nice”? Or say the things that hurt and keep losing friends and friends-to-be? I have been wavering back and forth between these two stances, without managing to stick to one. I guess I ought to take it on a case by case basis.

Years and years ago, I dared voicing substantiated concerns about an obscure mare in the Syrian Studbook Vol.1 (thank God she died without progeny). I put these in writing through correspondance with a couple of vocal, tough, yet well meaning American ladies (no need to mention names). I ended up getting in trouble with some Syrian friends and I stopped talking to these ladies for years. The Syrian friends eventually forgave me “because I was young” and I later mended things with one of the American ladies, whom I can’t help liking despite what had happened. Still, I withdrew from the Arabian horse microcosm for three years,which in retrospect was not a bad thing, because I could focus on my studies.

More recently, I got into similar trouble by expressing doubts about another Syrian mare. This one was very prolific and her sons and daughters are all over the Syrian studbook (sigh). The matter immediately became an ”affaire d’etat”, a big fuss was made, and I lost more friends.  Some Syrians and some non-Syrians don’t like it when some people criticize some of their horses in front of foreigners (I think ‘some’ repeated four times should provide enough of a protection here). They take it very personally, and to them it’s an issue of national pride. I quickly was dubbed a fool, a naive, an ignorant, or worse, a traitor. How could I know, was I told, since I was not there and was not even born at the time when the mare was bred? It didn’t matter if I said that I was merely relaying the suspicions of others, who were more informed but less willing to say things out loud. These suspicions couldn’t be true, was I also told, because (almost) nothing was written, which meant these allegations were baseless “rumors” conveyed by Bedouins, most of whom are ”liars” anyway. “Rumors”? All Bedouin history, stories, genealogies, lore, songs, poetry, and horse pedigrees are transmitted orally. Does that mean they should all be discounted? That sad story has barely subsided now.

Whatever the case, I learned my lesson, which was often repeated to by my father, the thoughtful and wise  Lebanese Army General Salim Al-Dahdah: “Stay out of trouble, and do not say bad things about ANY Syrian horse. If you do not have something good to say about them, then don’t say anything”. This is the same piece of advice Thumper’s mother gave to her rabbit son in the Disney cartoon “Bambi”, of which my daughter Samarcande is a big fan. You will no doubt have noticed that I have heeded my father’s and Umm Thumper’s advice and only feature those Syrian horses I have really good things to say about, and, fortunately, there are many more good ones than not-so-good ones. This means you can be sure that every Syrian horse featured in this blog is irreproachably asil, first, because I don’t like to lie, and second, because I am not ready to say bad things about the others, so I stick to saying good things about the good ones. The stuff about the not-so-good ones will stay in the laptop.

At least I can trash most French horses, since France protects free speech.

But what about those horses about which I have things to say, which are not necessarily bad things, but which will run counter to the accepted wisdom? What about El Deree (who is genuine) and the fake pseudo-hujjah of his (which is a forgery)? What about the Tahawi horses which have been submitted for inclusion in the Al Khamsa Roster, and the Bisharat horses, which were accepted in Al Khamsa in 1995? What about the Tunisian head stallion Esmet Ali? What about the Khedive Abbas Hilmi’s El Halabi and his dam Halabia, who are in every other Arabian pedigree in the world? What about Nafaa al Saghira and her sire? I feel I have things to say here, again not necessarily bad things, just questions that I feel are legitimate, and I don’t want to alienate more people? What should I do?

Serious advice needed, please !!!I still havent’resoved the

54 Replies to “My endless dilemma

  1. Often a pregnant silence conveys more information than a well meaning discussion of the perceived facts. However, even when a name (horse) is dropped and nothing more is said, then there are those (which includes me) that suspect there is information which would delegitimize that horse in the eyes of we “so called” breeders of “Asil” horses.

    Until DNA testing by the US registry, there were some breeders who misrepresented the parentage of the horses they bred because it was financially beneficial to do so. These horses are still in blood lines of registered Arabian Horses.

    Fortunately, the time of the Arabian being the value of a Ming Vase, is nearly over, and we have to like them for themselves and not for that which enlarges our personal hubris. It is when individuals are deeply involved in mythology that information which may even slightly allege that the belief is myth, it is the messenger, not the message which is the beneficiary of the anger.

    We all want to hear that a horse of question is in some others pedigrees, but definitely not in our own.

    Lorriee

  2. Hello Edouard,

    Please keep doing what you were doing, this is just a blog for Arabian Horse lovers, we re not even talking about politics or religion 🙂

    Thank you very much for this work, I am so gload to have discovred this site

    Mehdi

  3. I don’t know what to tell you, Edouard. This situation presents itself to all of us who hang around long enough. Al Khamsa faces this every time it publishes a book. The only thing I can say is take care of yourself and your family first. Lorriee’s comments about the myth and the messenger are very well said! My fingers were burned back when I was very young, and I became much more cautious!

    It is one thing that has caused us concern over any international asil stud book. There would be some very unhappy people.

    I am sure you are keeping record on all of the negative things you find. Perhaps time will bring some of these things to a clear decision point.

    —–

    A mutual acquaintance of ours came to the conclusion that the only way to handle this was to include everything that COULD possibly be asil, and then organize them by quality of information.

    Of course, this still gets you to the same point when eventually pride (both personal and national) gets involved. Sigh.

    I don’t know what to tell you, Edouard!

  4. you have my full understanding, Edouard.
    People like you, there’s too little, you’re absolutely right with what you write.
    Too many horses were on the WAHO and AL Khamsa accepted even though they have a dubious origin, or even none at all.
    Sharkasi, was also accepted but we do not know his parents, but El Gadaa where we know the breeder and the ancestry, were entertained doubts.
    Strange.
    Gharib and El Garia are for me personally anyway very suspect.
    Who was El Deree really?
    and at El Garia first was a daughter of Tuhotmos, then a bin Galila.

  5. Dear All,

    Will we ever know if our Asil’s are Asil?? I mean you can look up things and studbooks, go to the source ask around, but unless you have witnessed the breeding and were there when the foal was born and its parents etc. you can not know if somebody is telling you the truth.

    We have three Arabians with Skowronek in the line, and one with Folla, but are they less Asil, I do not think so. In the case of Skowronek I think that it comes all down to jealousy and Folla was Asil as well. But why do I believe that?? Because I think that a true Bedouin or Sheikh would not lie, but eh who am I.

    Keep it coming Edouard, we love it all the way.

    Monique

  6. Dear Edouard,

    first off keep the good work you’ve been doing in all those years. I simply love to read this blog with all it’s – often very unique – information. Yes, of course there are other sources on the web as well but most of the times people just start bashing on the thoughts and findings of others.:(
    For me there was never a reason to do something like this… after all we have this saying, that a good horse does not have a colour and that you cannot ride on a pedigree. So I guess a lot of people should first off start to test their horses – in whatever way they want – and if the particular horse proves itself to them, does it really matter that much anymore if their pedigree is “top of the art”?
    On a more personal note… you wrote: ‘A lot of this information is generally positive, in the sense that it confirms the asil status of a particular line. This for instance is the case of the Tunisian desert-bred import Barr, or the Egyptian desert-bred import El Nasser, who were been outcasts for decades until they were recently rehabilitated.’
    Did I miss something??? I remember that you said some time ago, that there would be more information about Barr later on but I cannot recall that I saw anything about him after that… Please, I need some input ragarding this topic. Thanks! 😀

    Regards
    Sandra 🙂

  7. Dear Edouard,

    Keep doing what you are doing, we enjoy the truth and all about those lovely creatures

    Khaled Al-Faisal Al Saud said:

    ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???
    ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??????
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    Regards,
    Bassam

  8. Dear Edouard,

    How can we ever learn anything if we stick our heads in the sand? I for one want to know, the good, the bad and the ugly… how else can we move forward with confidence? Of course I am not doing the writing and I am not receiving those unhappy emails, I am simply trying to learn the truth so please keep up your wonderful work on ALL these horses, not just the politically safe ones.

    Best regards,
    Judi

  9. Carl Raswan faced some of the same issues when he stated in his book The Arab and His Horse (1955) that Skowronek was “a PART-bred Arabian.” (capitalization and emphasis in original). See in particular the discussion beginning on page vii and on page 107.

    Skowronek’s pedigree is typical of breeding coming down from the horses maintained by the Sanguszko family at the Slawuta, Chrestowka, and Antoniny studs, so the discussion probably should have been about the Sanguszko horses, not Skowronek as an individual, but in 1955, most Arabians in the U.S. had Slawuta breeding only through Skowronek.

  10. The Truth.

    What is Truth. It is as white as you want to see it.
    As black as you want to see it.

    It can fly with wings of Angels to Heaven, flowing in silvery white….
    or It can plunge into the depths of Hell in Black.

    I think Asil can only be judged by those who bred the horse.

    Not the keeper.

  11. If you can support your doubts regarding asils that are not, speak up, if not it is probably better to remain silent. As for the good news, you of course have to provide facts, especially if there are a great number of potential asils around as with Barr.

  12. Edouard,
    When you receive information that casts doubt on a horse’s purity you need to research it’s ancestry as much as you can then publish all the information you have found on that horse. Include where you got the information. If you don’t want to name sources then state “Person A” etc but give background details as to why that person knows what they know. Publish it as a set of information and not your personal view. That way people can read it and make up their own mind as to whether that horse is pure or not. They can get angry at the information not at you.
    Don’t let others discourage you. Us readers appreciate the fact you want the truth to be known if a horse is impure.

  13. Dear Edouard:

    In 1944, C.S. Lewis, delivered a speech to the students at King’s College. Europe had suffered greatly during World War II and now looked to her youth, to rebuild and lead the country back to prosperity. However, Lewis believed that the students he spoke to, would be preoccupied with finding jobs, establishing careers, falling in love and building families and not leading reconstruction. Lewis believed that the strongest of all human drives is the desire to belong to an inner circle promising status, power, prestige and recognition. He warned the students that “the inner ring” is an illusion, existing only in their minds. The much harder road for a person to travel, is found outside this circle, leading in a different direction, far away from the Inner Ring, which leads no where.

    What is the inner ring in the Arabian Horse world?

    Best wishes,
    Ralph

  14. Human nature is a given all over the world. It is the second constant that steps in an affects our preferences and breeding choices after Nature which is usually the first.

    Among the Bedouin at some point there must have been preferences, as well as doubts, unknowns and unwanteds. In the whole interactive process of the various tribes through both alliances and battles, human nature was always there. As William Lancaster hinted at, the pragmatic nature of needs can shape and reshape the details of the history of a culture.

    Then after that there are those travelers who obtained horses from the Bedouin under a variety of circumstances, some travelers wanting to carry forward all the information of their acquisitions while for others it was not important. Likely some horses were even stolen, resold, information lost or pieced together, restated or embellished. For those that valued the information there was also the ever present challenge of being able to make sure that it carried forward to the future. Today we as lovers of the “Asil” horse have to be able to make something of all this.

    The reality is that we cannot duplicate exactly the ancestral criteria that a particular tribe used for its particular horse breeding choices hundreds of years ago. We cannot today breed a whole line of horses that would be “unassailably asil” by everyone’s critique. Today there is no more the “Black and White” of it if there ever truly was in the past.

    What does distinguish so many lovers of the “Asil” horse is the desire to preserve the “horse of the desert”, the product of the originating culture, the natural looking, swift running drinker of the wind that, in the flesh, excites us in the same way that the horses depicted in 19th century artworks must have impressed the artists portraying them. In valuing this kind of horse, we also value the originating culture and keep it fresh in our minds.

    To me this valuing the originating culture and the kind of horse that represents it is the FIRST consideration which makes any pedigree discussion necessarily the SECOND consideration for we will never be able to fill in completely the blanks for every ancestor of every horse that we reasonably assume descends from that culture.

    The Arabian horse of today exists in many different cultures. Yet in many of them it has become largely separated from the context of its original one. Edouard’s blog site here has done a remarkable job of fostering the awareness of the originating culture and the kinds of horses associated with it. To me, if we are breeding from Arabians whose ancestors rely on a “reasonable assumption” of descending from the originating culture (recognizing the complex, sometimes contradictory and nebulous nature of information about the ancestry) and we are first “thinking like a Bedouin” in our decision making about the kind of horse we want, then that is the ultimate we can do today to preserve what has so many times been “nearly lost” to us in the past.

    Thank you Edouard for all you have already done on this website and for continuing to share your journey with us. None of us individually can have the final word on the horse of the desert but collectively our knowledge, passion and commitment are the oasis for the future of the “Asil” Arabian horse.

  15. Hi Edouard

    I agree with those that have already mentioned Carl Raswan.

    He did publish information he had become acquainted with over the years.. some has withstood the test of time, some not.

    But even he did not publish all of it.

    He is still controversial.

    I wish he had lived a few decades longer….

    AW who is still on the Akhal Teke list

  16. Dear Edouard,

    Remember when we first met at the WAHO conference in Morocco? What was it — 14, 15 years ago? You were still in high school and even then, like your father, fanatically interested in the asil desert horse.

    One didn’t have to be a genius to recognize that with your intellect, grasp of English, French and Arabic and unique background — growing up in Lebanon with first-hand knowledge of the asil horses of Syria, and taught by both your father and other Eastern authorities, that you were in the perfect position to potentially become both a ‘bridge’ between the lovers of the asil horse in both East and West, and a source of information and mututal understanding for both sides.

    It wasn’t just your charm and good looks that had me sending you English language books on the Arabian horse — it was the hope and realization that you might one day use what you learned to help us in the West truly understand Eastern thinking — and to correct many misinterpretations–about how we think of the asil horse.

    Both Joe and Sharon Ferriss and Charles and Jeanne Craver will remember that I wrote them emails and simply gave them instructions that they were now your adopted family and must ‘invite you home’ to share holidays when several years later you first came to America and to pursue a degree in Chicago.
    I remember writing them that they could ‘fight over’ who would have you for Thanksgiving and who would have you for Christmas, and that they could ‘thank me later’….

    Edouard, it is not an exaggeration to say that the asil community worldwide thanks you for sharing the truth as you know it, both within the context of your work via Al Khamsa, your published articles and lectures, and especially on this marvelous forum, your blog. Please keep sharing your truth, your insights, your doubts, to all of us. We all recognize that there can be more than one truth and respect the right to disagree about certain issues and certain horses. It is the dialogue that is important and it must continue.

    God bless you and Happy Holidays my friend.

    Tzviah

  17. Tzviah, that was lovely! And I certainly do remember your note, and Edouard’s first visit! That start of a wonderful and very stimulating friendship.

  18. Tzviah, I heartily agree with you! Edouard’s honesty, integrity and seriousness of purpose inform this site, as does his first-rate mind and scholarship. I join you and the others in asking Edouard to please continue this vital undertaking.

  19. Keep it comming, Edouard.

    Ed Wood’s thought to keep the information as information and not emotional thoughts is the most ideal. Deliver what you know as factual as possible. Then people can make up their own minds… whenever. Sometimes the uptake of information can and does take time.

    The same can be said now regarding genetic anomalies. There are those that know a whole lot more than is ever going to be known – until it’s too late.

    The information about Slawuta’s breeding program along with the information within the very first Russian Studbook is still a hard grasp for some, but it is there.

  20. diane, what information is it that you are referring to in the first Russian studbook? I do recall Lazlo Monostory telling us that the reason why the Russan Arabs were so strong in the croup and hindend was that they had a lot of shagya in them, and of course were not asil in the sense that he and Tibor von Pettko de Szandter would use the term asil- that all lines traced directly back to the desert. But Babolna and the Hungarian breeding system in general did note in different color inks which horses in the shagyas pedigrees were asil and which ones were not. The American Shagya folks got the color coding idea from the Hungarians iirc. Ran across a web posting yesterday of Sig Bag 6 all in green. It came up from Googling Kuhaylan Zaid. Best wishes
    Bruce Peek

  21. Bruce, when you say “Russian Arabs,” do you mean the breeding program begun in the 1930s and carried on at the Tersk Stud? The pedigrees of those horses as registered in the RASB do not show any Shagya blood, do they? Was Laszlo Monostory (who was a neighbor of mine and whose home I visited) saying that the pedigrees were not recorded correctly in RASB? If so, how did Laszlo know that? Or was he simply giving his opinion based on the appearance of the horses?

    On another topic, didn’t the Babolna pedigrees show the descendants of horses like Ajeeb, 18 Izis, Ben Achmed, Dardziling (grandsire of Dajaker), and Kalga (dam of Siglavy Bagdady III) as Arab fullbloods, not Shagyas?

  22. R J The Terskbreds- meaning those of French, Polish, Crabbet,and Hungarian descent. IIRC Lazlos remarks came about when we were discussing Gladys Brown Edwards articles about the Russian horses in the Arabian Horse World, in response to questions about how the Terskbreds were so consistently tall( 15.1 plus) yet substantial and ,”typey.” Further, Lazlo said he had visited Hungary after detente between the West and eastern block had begun in the70’s. He had a picture of Shagya 39 taken on that trip, which Some U.S Arab breeders said resembled a nicely shouldered version of Skowronekbred horses. Also he said the Russians had taken Purebreds and Shagyas from all over Eastern Europe when their armies rolled through during the war and after the 56 hungarian revolt.
    As to the first Russian studbook it was my understanding that the purebred Russian breeding system of the Czarist days was basically wiped out, again based on what G. Edwards said in her AHW articles, which were essentially slanted to market the Russian horses to the U. S. arab industry. This in reference to the Russian purchase of the Crabbet stock- Naseem etc. when again according to Edwards the Russian beeeding program was started over.
    As for pedigrees not being recorded correctly in the RASB yes of course that is precisely what I mean, Capitalised and underlined with exclamation points. If the tail female Davenport lines are shown to be different i.e. Sheria and
    Galfia as the result of DNA tests, when there was no million dollar motive to pass off horses as Asil meaning from an inadvertent mixup, then what are the chances that horses who resemble anglo-arabs more closely than they
    resemble Asils, are purebreds.
    Best wishes
    Bruce Peek

  23. Yes, it’s true that the Arabian breeding programs of czarist Russia were wiped out, meaning for example the horses of Sherbatov and Stroganov and whatever was bred from Blunt horses that ended up in Russia (e.g. horses like Mesaoud, Pharaoh, Sobha). And yes, the Soviets started a new Arabian breeding program in the 1930s with horses purchased from France (1930) and Crabbet (1936), later adding horses from Poland taken at the beginning of World War II (1939). (There was also one Koheilan IV son from Hungary in 1930 but he does not seem to have left any get?)

    However, you are probably also aware that many of the farms that we think of today as the historic Polish breeding studs were located in Volhynia and Ukraine, which are outside the borders of present-day Poland. These studs included Bialocerkiew, Slawuta, Antoniny, and Satanow. Prior to World War I, the Ukraine and Volhynia (and much of present-day Poland too) were part of the czarist Russian Empire. Although I have not seen the Russian stud book from prior to World War I, my understanding is that it includes Arabians we think of today as historic Polish breeding, because they were owned and bred in what at the time was Russian territory.

    I never had occasion to discuss the Tersk horses with Laszlo, but he’s certainly entitled to his opinion.

    The Russians did cancel the registration of Irkuck, 1927 grey by Muezin x Hebda bred at Janow Podlaski, who traced back to 50 Gidran XXXII through his sire, who was a son of Sarolta 1897 (Esseg x Madera). (Note that this is not the same mare as the Sarolta bred 1910 at Weil.)

  24. Edouard: Is it permitted to name famous Russian stallions who contain disputed breeding? I have briefly perused the all breed pedigree index and found indisputable
    non asils, who were named according to the Babolna system, and who were used in Shagya breeding and ,” purebred,” breeding. I do not wish to harm anyone who may be breeding the descendants of these horses under the impression that they are asil so I am reluctant to list them. Suffice it to say that they encompass several,” National Champions.”
    This is not to say that I would refuse to ride a nice russian gelding, afterall one of the ultimate tests of the horses quality is the tangible conformation we can appreciatte in the flesh.
    best wishes
    Bruce Peek

  25. O.K. R D five star goes back to Taraszcza and then to 124 Obajan.. Muscat of course had Skowronek through the Crabbetside and then to Obejen Srebrny. Nariadni had 35 Amurath 2, back to 104 Koreischan, and then to Piolun back to 91 Jusuf,124 Obajan, and 30 Bagdady. Neopseda goes to 124 Obajan. Padron went to Piolun, and of course Skowronek.
    The Babolna naming system encompassed purebreds as well as what in our time have come to be called Shagyas. Generally the purebreds were given numbers in the 1 to 20 range and over 200 as well, as it was explained to me by Lazlo so that everyone would know what was clearly a partbred- Araber Rasse- or as we now call them Shagyas, and what was a purebred tracing to desertbreds.
    The other point is that the Hungarians knew there were differences between asil horses and Shagyas and never tried to pretend otherwise. Other Eastern European breeding systems not so much. But then unlike the Polish breeders the Hungarians didn’t have a steady stream of American millionaires waving large checks at them.
    Who among us living in dire poverty with the prospect that happy days were going to be here if we sold a few horses to misguided foreigners would blow the deal by taking the purchaser aside and saying,” uhm theres’ a nagging question of genetic descent about that horse you just gave 150,000 for under the delusion that he traces in all lines to the desert.” “We here in whateverland have always had this national program for breeding cavalry remounts and now three day event horses with a good deal of Arab blood, hundreds of them a year in fact. We have never had more than a few dozen arabs that meet the arabs own definition of what an Arabian horse is, but by golly your new horse if the best 15/16ths arabian money can buy.”
    That would not work.

  26. Bruce, you are partly right about the Hungarian broodmare numbering system. I will quote from volume II (1982) of the Babolna stud book: “The fillies receive a number in front of their names when they become mares at the age of 3-4 years. Arabian Purebreds are granted a strain number between 1 and 30, and between 201 and 250.” Note that it is numbers from 1 to 30, not 1 to 20.

    NOTA BENE: The broodmare numbering system described above was not adopted until a few years into the Twentieth Century. It was not used for broodmares who were foaled at Babolna in the 1800s. The broodmares 104 Koreischan, 91 Jussuf, 124 O’Bajan, and 30 Bagdady trace in every line to foundation horses described as Original Arabians. Just run their pedigrees all the way back. There is no Shagya blood behind any of them. And as a point of information, all four of these broodmares have been accepted for the Al Khamsa roster.

    Very early Shagya foundation mares at Babolna had names like 2 Prudenta, 13 Bellamore, 3 Robusta, 23 Marques, and 5 Cupressus. These were not purebred Arabians, despite having numbers below 30.

    35 Amurath II was a stallion (bred at Radautz) and the Austro-Hungarian studs had a different numbering system for stallions. But he’s a son of Amurah 1881 and an original Arabian mare from Syria named 186 Fatme; no Shagya blood there. 35 Amurath II has also been added to the Al Khamsa roster.

    Now, a question for you: if the Hungarians considered the Skowronek blood not to be asil, how do you explain the Skowronek granddaughters who were broodmares at Babolna numbered 203 Ajeeb, 205 Ajeeb, 221 Ajeeb, and 234 Ajeeb? There was also 203 Ajeeb’s daughter 13 Koheilan VIII and 205 Ajeeb’s daughters 3 Kuhaylan Haifi I and *243 Mersuch III. These broodmare numbers are all within the purebred range.

  27. R J Thanks for the clarity on the numbering systems. So if these mares,104 Koreischan, 91 Jussuf, 124 Obajan, and 30 Bagdady, are original arabs, can we say Nariadni for example was asil? Good point about the Skowronek grandaughters. If the Babolna guys felt Skowronek was asil then they must have had a good basis for that belief. So does that mean that the questions raised about Skowronek are invalid or that Raswan and others got it wrong?
    Also if the Ajeeb line mares are asil
    then wouldn’t that widen the present day genetic base for the Babolna purebreds? Do we now have more lines that are asil?
    Thanks
    Bruce Peek

  28. First, I did not say that 104 Koreischan, 91 Jussuf, 124 O’Bajan, and 30 Bagdady were themselves Original Arabians. I said that they “trace in every line to foundation horses described as Original Arabians.”

    Second, “Asil” is in the eyes of the beholder. I’ve heard that some breeders in Syria will not consider a foal that was bred by artificial insemination to be asil, regardless of the pedigree. Asil status seems to me to be more a social and religious concept than it is a pedigree definition, but other people might disagree with me. Whether you consider *Nariadni and Skowronek to be asil is your business, based on your own study of their pedigrees and background. Edouard, and his readers, probably have their own opinions on whether Skowronek and *Nariadni are asil.

    Third, you write, “If the Babolna guys felt Skowronek was asil then they must have had a good basis for that belief.” I am not sure that the Hungarian concept of “Arab fullblood” is the same thing as “asil.” That said, the Hungarians must have had a good basis for considering Skowronek’s son Ajeeb to be an Arab fullblood, but maybe that good basis went no further than investigation of Ajeeb’s export certificate from the General Stud Book, which was and is the oldest published stud book pedigree authority in the world. The Hungarians acquired Ajeeb in 1930 but volume I of the Polish Arabian Stud Book was not published until 1932, so the Hungarians could not have used that source to investigate Ajeeb’s Slawuta ancestry until after Ajeeb was already in Hungary.

    The Babolna authorities seem to have considered the Polish Arabians to be in the same category as Babolna’s own Arab fullbloods, and not the Shagya stock. As an early example, Babolna seems to have classed the Antoniny stallion Ben Achmed 1888 (Achmet x Zalotna) with the purebreds, not the Shagyas. His daughter 78 Ben Achmed (old broodmare numbering system) produced 19 Koheilan IV — by the time the Koheilan IV daughters entered production, the new numbering system was in use, and “19” indicates an Arab fullblood mare, not a Shagya mare. A much later example is the Polish stallion Cargo 1958 (Geyran x Carissima), who stood at Babolna in the 1960s. The 1972 Babolna stud book shows Cargo as an Arab fullblood.

    My point is simply that the Babolna broodmare numbers from the 20th century reflect nothing more than the best information available to, and the opinions of, the Babolna management at any given point in time. How much weight you want to give that authority is up to you. Myself, I like to draw full pedigrees to the last recorded ancestor and consider all available information, rather than relying entirely on the opinions of Carl Raswan or the Babolna management or anyone else.

  29. I haven’t had time to read all of the responses, but I think I am in agreement with most. I would rather hear an unpleasant truth than to continue to believe misinformation.

    I can survive with horses losing their AK/Asil status even within my own herd – no matter how disappointing it is.

    Perhaps there is a need for a new designation to indicate the ‘purest of the pure’ similar to the concepts of Blue List and BLUE STAR. Asil an Al Khamsa are supposed to identify Arabians that trace in all lines to desert breeding. It isn’t like we are pulling registration papers; merely defining which horses we consider to be Asil or Al Khamsa. (or some new designation)

    Anne

  30. A few days ago, I turned 70 years of age. I started studying Arabians and the pedigrees when I purchased my first Arabian in 1966 and it has been indeed a wild and interesting ride. It has been been quite a trip from the belief of registration being a trademark for purity to having grave doubts about any representation. To some extent, I think I’ve reached the Bedouin position on the acquisition of horses or the breeding of a mare to an outside stallion, and that I must depend on the truthfulness of friends, to paraphrase someone or something.

    Perhaps the most anxiety producing factual realization is, at this late date, it is not origin, but the possible genetic ticking time bombs these purer than driven snow horses may be carrying, when to some extent, and for no real other reason than an unsubstantiated belief (no, make that hope) that the horses tracing to the desert were going to have greater Darwinian survival DNA encoded due to the harsh realities of their ancestors turned out to be misplaced.

    Personally, I must admit, I’ve been in love with the romance of the idea of these horses having ancestors which were kicking sand off the bottom of their hooves, but as an old old biologist and chemist, the science of the thing, is making me rethink my purpose, even at this late date.

    I also have never been in love with some of the preservation definitions, (thank you, whatever deity I am inclined to thank at the moment for purely selfish motivations) and have tried to pick and choose among the asil designations due to my own skepticism of the mechanisms used for these designations and having seen a great great number of these animals (whatever breeding line designation) over the last forty-four years.

    From the purely academic and Holmesian research (the game is afoot) standpoint, all this has been very interesting and indeed a lot of fun, from the biological standpoint, I’m not sure what the original mission statement was, anymore.

  31. As long as we’re on the subject of the 20th century Babolna broodmare numbers, Babolna’s 30 Maria descendants make an interesting study. The 1972 Babolna stud book labels 30 Maria, for example on pages 10 and 11, as an “angol teliver.” That’s Hungarian for English Thoroughbred. 30 Maria’s descendants include these Babolna broodmares:

    114 Gazal (1914)
    20 Koheilan VI (1932)
    20 Kuhaylan Zaid (1938)
    21 Kuhaylan Zaid I (1951)
    22 Miecznik (1952)
    2 Siglavy Bagdady VI (1966)
    1 Koheilan XI (1967)
    15 Koheilan XI (1968)
    16 Koheilan XI (1969)
    95 Koheilan XI (1970)
    115 Ibn Galal (1971)
    117 Ibn Galal (1973)
    22 Ghalion (1975)
    125 Ghalion (1975)
    127 Farag I (1975)

  32. Hi Edouard.

    Burn my fingers a lot. Was also “young”. Don’t need to put this on the site if you you don’t want to. Wich horses according to you have questions about their origen.

    Kindest
    Paul

  33. We in Syria always judge horses by their breeders and where they come from, an Arabian horse is as good as his breeder.

    When we have a horse bred by a legend we never ever question the purity because we take the word of men as a contract and when they swear by the name of the mighty god we do not listen to what other people think or say about the purity of our horses and modern registration does not mean much to people who are still concerned about their Asil horses, specially the legendary Bedouin breeders.

    We are very proud we still call horses by their strains and breed them by their strains and non in the world does that apart from us or may be in Bahrain.

    We do not talk about other people’s horses and it is considered a bad character to talk about Asil horses and doubt their purity and it is against being a man as it is like talking about our women and their purity.

    Since old times the Arabs recognised the Asil from non Asil and there were always people whose job is to recognise these horses but the Arab did use non Asil horses in the wars and travel but never mixed them with their noble creature as it was considered a bad gesture and you loose respect for that and over every thing you lose the superiority in the breed to survive, of course greed changes people and it is a test for manhood and nobility, this is why an Arabian horses is as good as his breeder.

    Omar Ibn Elkhatab has sworn by god not to put the Asil horse in the same class with the non pure as he witnessed the difference in performance in the battle of Damascus.

    Since old time there were only few horses from pure blood lines and there will be only few left but enough to keep this noble breed going , it is not protected by WAHO, Alkhamsa or you , it is protected by God and the real men who gave their lives for this breed.

    It is not fair to Ibn Gourab and Ibn A’afytan or Ibn Shayan, or Ibn Haythmy or Ibn Touyresh or Ibn Sbayel on Ibn Zodgom or Abou Sayefan ….etc to accuse horses from being non Asil specially we are the source of your information, and if your judgement based on one man who has long passed away and he was a horse dealer we can still help you and put you out of your dilemma and give you any information you want about any horse you think it is not legitimate.

    If I were you I will take your Dad advice he is well regarded and well liked man in the whole country because he knows well what an Arabian horse bred in Syria means and knows Syrian breeders and what their horses mean to them.

    Am sure you noticed traditional Syrian breeders do not know anything about Arabians outside Syria and do not talk about them and do not care, they will never breed to them not because they are not pure but because since the Arabs bred their horses they put very strict rules about the breeding ways and they have never ever bred to a horse they do not recognise where it come from so for example even if u swear that davenport horses came from us, but we don’t know how they bred and who bred them with all the respect to every man involved in that project, you will find hardly anyone to cover his Nawakeiah or Ma’anakeiah with the Haifi of Davenport while we have the Haifi of Aljabri still going…

    It is not fair for people who gave their time and effort to protect these horses and protect their owners, it took 8 years and some people like Basil Jadaan and Saleih Srouji from their money and time and family, then we start accusing the Arabian horses in the stud book being non pure based on rumours or jealousy and with no evidence. When Basil Assad asked Saleh Srouji to register horses in the horse club out of around 80 horses, only the Nawakeiah was pure and bred by a respected marbat, and even when the companions of prophet Mohammed tried to organise what he said after his death they found thousands of false words referred to him not long after his death…..we are dealing with human beings and they are not the same in ethic or morals but I can reassure you any horse came from a well known breeder is pure with no doubt, when I bought my Nawakeiah it took me years but when I found the man I did not even question her pedigree because that man who bred the mare who produced Husam Alshamal which you discussed in your site, that man’s words are contract and will never ever lie for a horse so I bought the man’s word before the horse.

    We are very happy to investigate about any horse who you think has got issue providing there is evidence or people witness to what you say but we prefer you come back to us in Syria and ask us first before you start accusing our horses from being non Asil in direct or indirect way, it is not just national pride it is honour and dignity these creatures mean to us.

    For the mare in the stud book which her sons and daughters all over the place , people like yourself always talked about her and you know she is from the same strain as Elnasser or one of his ancestors is, your information only based on what Alhemamy god bless his soul said . I really think if you have more information you should share it with us, specially we can put you in touch with Ahmad Eltaha’ son and you can speak to him and try to get more information.

    As for Elderee myself and Basil Jadaan we were involved in this matter, we do not know anything about this horse but we were asked if we know Sheikh Aljbour and we have put the person who claimed his grand dad have presented a horse to the Royal family of Egypt at the time, in touch with the person who is asking to speak to him, we did not falsify any information, all what we did we organised a talk between two people one from the States and one is a grand son of a very respectful sheikh in the Syrian desert.

    As we have been always the source of Arabian horses to the entire planet we will continue to do so even with a small number of pure horses we feel honoured and proud to carry on this responsibility and duty

    Dr Hazaim Alwair

  34. Hazaim, I don’t need lectures, please. I love ‘your’ horses just as much as you do, if not more. And I ache when I see a small percentage of less good horses pollute the good ones, because of some people’s greed. This is what happened to the Lebanese horses in the 1960s and I don’t want to see it happen to the Syrian horses now. And neither do you, which I is why you, Hazaim Alwair, started that coureageous quest of trying to get these less good ones out of the Syrian Studbook. You are my source of information about many of these less good ones, so don’t give me that discourse. Also, no one is talking about Jadaan, Srouji, Jabri or their horses. These are the honest guys, and God bless them and their efforts. We shall always be in their debt. And as you say, a horse is as good as his beeder. But what about the horses of the other guys, the cheaters?

    My dilemma is moral, not epistemological, and any information you or other Syrian breeders might give will not solve it. My dilemma has to do with the pros and cons of exerting rational (socratic) questioning in a context like Syria where reputation, honor, shame (al-3ayb), morals, and religion are a big thing. Your response proves my point.

    Gee, I knew I would get in trouble again. I just never learn.

  35. Edouard:

    Those of us trained in the Socratic method should remember how well that went over with those worried about this method corrupting youth – If I may, it is always a good thing to prepare your tea at home and take it with you on trips.

  36. Your dilemna is not unique.

    I personally know of a situation where some half-Arabians “supposedly” sired by a popular imported Arabian stallion were deliberately passed off as purebred Arabians.

    The advice that has comforted me over the years is the following: “Nobody can ever force you to either buy, or to breed to, any Arabian horse whose ancestry may be less than pure.”

  37. Hi Edouard,
    I will understand if you have to ignore or delete this question because I am sure it only adds to your “endless dilemma”.
    Are you able to clarify what you meant by your comment above: “What about El Deree (who is genuine) and the fake pseudo-hujjah of his (which is a forgery)?”
    specifically, what is it about the hujjah (presumably we’re talking about the one procured from Syria in May 2007) that makes you think it is fake or a forgery? Thank you, and again I will understand if you can’t answer this question.

    1. it’s fake because:

      1. by definition, a hujja cannot be created for a dead horse, after his death. A hujja is a certificate that authenticates something that exists now. Testifying in 2007 about El Deree who was dead in the 1930s, is like testifying today on a house that was razed in 1930 and does not exist anymore. As such it does not fulfill, the basic definition of hujjah. That’s from a legal perspective.

      2. also by definition, a hujja cannot be signed and testified by someone who did not breed or own the horse. Daham al-Maslat did not breed or own El Deree. He was not even born when El Deree died, he did not know him and as such, cannot testify about him. This fact alone does not make it a hujjah, but rather a document that has no value. That’s also from a legal perspective.

      3. Henri Pharaon who was mentioned as the conveyor/driver of the horse to Egypt, was not a merchant or a horse trader. He did not personally deliver horses, even to Kings, as stated in the “hujjah”. He was an important person, the Foreign Affairs Minister of Lebanon. It shows that Daham al-Maslat did not know who Pharaon was. That’s from the factual perspective.

      4. At the time the horse was supposedly taken to Egypt, mid-twenties, Pharaon was a teen-ager studying in Europe: check here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Pharaon
      That’s also from the factual perspective.

      5. The hujjah shows Egypt as a Republic (Jumhuriyat Misr al-Arabiyah), while it was a Kingdom at the time… That’s also from the factual perspective.

      Is that enough, or should I keep going?

      Hansi is a good person, and I like her and respect her, but she got it wrong on this one, in her eagerness to show that the horse was asil — which he was anyway, the testimony of Ali Barazi in Forbis in Classic Arabian Bloodstock was enough proof.

  38. Very interesting Edouard, and thanks again for the logical presentation of facts. I think there’s a message in your words – any of us can let emotions and passion cloud the facts from time to time.

    My view – we have what we have and it’s important to gather as much information as possible about ancestral horses and from there draw our own lines in the sand as to what is acceptable. As long as the information is presented in a factual and respectful way, and scrutiny is applied equally and fairly to all, there shouldn’t be a problem – anyone can take it or leave it.

    I like your ideas regarding listing or grouping all of the horses as to what information there is (or isn’t); to me that’s the most honest way of presenting the information as in my view some horses have been given too much benefit of the doubt, and others, not enough.

  39. Dear Edouardo
    this is the second time I am typing this.
    First time was deleted while I did not show my e-mail

    I am truly confused now. In 1994 in Marocco your father told me that the man who delivered El Deree to the King was still alive, was at the time a very young man.
    Later in oine of your e-mails you told me that this was Henry Faroun, and you father looked upon him like a stepfather, loved and respected him that much.
    I have to digg yout the e-mail from years ago to see if I kisread anything.

    the germans had doubts about the horse, I never did. I wanted to get to the tribe in 2006 in Syria, but this did jnot happen. Instead through the kindness of Basil I was introduced to the grandson of the breeder in Damascus who gave me the document in question.
    I thought this document was bona-fide and so ahppy I got it.

    Where did I go wrong?

    Take care and hugs
    Hansi

  40. Hi Hansi,

    Good to hear from you, as always.

    If my father was talking about Pharaon, then yes, Pharaon sold a lot of horses to Egypt, including El Nasser to Abul-Futuh. But he did not deliver them personally. He was too important and too busy being a Minister and a member of the jet-set.

    But Pharaon was not connected with El Deree, which was before his time. El Deree was already in Egypt in 1924. Pharaon was too young at that time.

    Now it is true that Pharaon used to have merchants like Hammami and Khodr Mihyu convey horses to Egypt, and he also used the sea transport from Beirut to Alexandria when the land route was cut after the foundation of the state of Israel in 1948.

    I remember telling you later that Hammami the horse merchant could have answered your question about hwo bred El Deree and who sent El Deree to Egypt, because Hammami was the last horse merchant alive from that old generation. But Hammami is dead now.

    I know and I understand that you thought the document that given to you was bona fide, and that you took it in good faith, but frankly it does not do the job.

    A document produced in 2007 about a horse born in 1920 cannot be authentic, especially when the person who testifies did not know the horse, own the horse or even see the horse. Daham was not born when El Deree died. In a hujjah, any signatory needs to know the horse personally and they need to have owned the horse or bred him, and any witnesses need to have known the breeder or the owner personally so they could vouch for him.

    If the hujjah does not have the signature of the owner or breeder of a horse, then it’s not authentic. It’s a modern fabrication, even if it was for noble reasons and done in good faith.

    In the meantime, what you can do to find more about the horse, is go to Forbis’s reference, and try to track down the two options that Forbis cites as possible breeders for El Deree:

    Option 1: Husayn al-Deree of al-Jubur (most likely option in my opinion).

    Option 2: Hamad Ibn Mudhayfir of Najd

    But the option of the grandfather of Daham al-Maslat as a breeder is not an option.

    In Syria in 2007 you wanted to go see the tribe of al-Jubur and ask them questions, and that’s a very valuable and legitimate idea, and a good thing to do. But unfortunately it was not possible, so the Syrians were nice enough to get you to meet the grandson of the leader of the tribe (very large tribe, 200,000 people at least), but neither he nor his grandfather had anything to do with El Deree.

  41. Dear Edouard

    I also pray that you and your are okay.I miss you.

    Just replied, and again somwhow I pushed a button and it is deleted.I now try again.

    I do not have the names of possible breeders in my records but will ad them. My records show Bred by Sheikh Al Meslat Pasha,
    Al jibur Tribe, Deir/El Zor,Syria.
    I guess Judi is not that certain either.

    than Colin Pearson in his publication The Arabian Horse Families of Egypt, Page,48 stated the horse was imported from Iraq around 1927 with further notes. Of course Pearson has a few others he missed, and I think he did not have access to the Herdbooks of the RAS/Police College,Inshass etc, in which horses questioned over the forum are recorded, such as Bint Nadia on H.B 1/P15

    I am only mentioning this because one can readily jump to conclusion.

    I was invited to stay on in Syria for a bit by Basil and Dr Hazaim but had to return as scheduled. Wanted to clear up a few other things.

    edouard, your fther told me in Morocco in 1994 that the man who delivery he horse to King Fouad was very young then and is still alive. I noted this down immediately then. You then sent me e-mails and I thought I read that it was “Henry Pharoun “who delivered the horse, and hnor to be requested to do that. You most likely know the age of Henry Phaoun, I dont.

    If you feel that the document I released over the internet and given to me by the grandson of the breeder is worthless, is wrong, and it was only done to please me
    and out of curtesy I am heartbroken. I dont want anything like this, I want the truth.

    Just wish you have contacted me earlier, when you saw a copy of this document.

    Both Basil and Dr Hazaim are my friends
    and I respect them highly, as I respect you and your father highly. Just dont want any frictions between any of us.

    Please help me out further with information for which I thank you.

    Hugs
    Hansi

    1. Hi Hansi,

      Don’t worry one minute. You were close enough to the target, when you went and tried to the see Jubur. You will succeed, next time, inshallah, in doing it. Lets look closer at Husayn al-Dayri of the Jubur. The al-Dayri people are well known in Syria as good owners of Saqlawi Shaifi horses, and El Deree might have come from there.

      Note that the time, in the 1920s, the border between Syria and Iraq was not well defined yet, and that the Jubur used to cross the border between the two countries. So whether Iraq or Syria it does not make a difference, as long as it’s the jazirah area, it’s one and the same.

      Take care,
      Edouard

  42. Dear Eduard

    thanks
    At least Pearsons’ statement “Iraq”is cleared up. did not know that in 1927 (you think 1924 the importation) in either case borders were not defined.good to know.
    When in Syia in 2006 we went right up to the Border of Iraq, and the Syrians and Iraqis crossed in harmony to go to work, or whatever.
    Its a beautilful country I fell in love with, also with their kind, charming and hospitable people.
    Need to get back before I go to greener patures. Come and join me then.

    Eduard, one hose is truly bugging me “Sharkasi” .I had a meeting in 1996/1998 in Cairo with official of the EAO, Danny Barbary and a friend of hers who is a friend of Mrs Gedawi, who imported
    him for racing.
    from the desert. Have to dig out that fille too.

    I saw a stallion at Lulua Al Sabbah’s in Egypt which was georgeous and reminded me of the type of theEgyptianPrince, except for the head, which was dry but not as dished. Saw others which impressed me. Elegant, clean conformation,truly looking “Asil”.Very beautiful horses. Not very tall, around 14,3HH

    What do you know about this? My gut feelings tell me that he is “Asil”. The parties attending the meeting swor that he is.

    It was Doug Marshall who rolled Dr Marsafi over in my house in Queensville,Canada in 1970, and Marsafi could not give data as to who the breeder was, etc and Marshall got upset. Jim Kline was also pesent.

    Marshall claimed Trouncer found Sharkasi in the streets of Cairo pulling heavy loads. Trouncer got him c.1955. Sharkasi died in 1966/67.

    I am truly impressed with the continous production and just pray that we find a way to have this horse acclaim his deserving status.

    Egypt and other Aab nations are still using this bloodline, so it has a good reason.

    Take care and many thanks again
    Hugs
    hansi

  43. PS Edouard
    It was Mrs Nquiddawi who got him in 1944, I was told- at least this is How I understood the name.
    Hansi

    1. Hansi, I think he is okay too but I can’t prove it.. click here to see my hypothesis about him, and ask your friends in Egypt if Al Zabra Stud was one of the many RAS depot in the provinces… then we will know the truth about his sire and his grandsire.

  44. Thanks Edouard, I do anything legal,morally ethical to help this horse acclaim its true status. because the ones I saw, and what is breeding on can not be overlooked.

    Hugs
    Hansi

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