Photo of the Day: Huntington Doyle, 1990 asil Saqlawi Jadran stallion
Karsten Scherling took this photo of the 1990 Saqlawi Jadran stallion Huntington Doyle (Dib x Gulida Nadjia by Bragadoon Fa Raad) at the 60 year celebration of the Doyle breeding program in Oregon in 2009. Huntington Doyle is the senior stallion at Doyle Arabians, and has the highest percentage of Abbas Pasha blood in any stallion alive today (64%), including at least 232 crosses to the Blunt’s Mesaoud, whose color he may have also inherited (unless it’s Rodania’s). Lyman Doyle in the picture.
It’s a bit sad that after 60 years the horrible croup of Hilmyeh keeps coming back. The foal picture of Carver DE shows the same problem. I can understand that a certain foundation mare surpasses all the others and is a red line in a breeding programm (like Hanan for Nagel or Estopa for Om El Arab) but breeding 60 years from the same foundation stallion and the same foundation mare must be extremely boring?! For instance El Alamein as pictured in the next topic would probably have worked miracles on these lines without changing the type
I guess just about any one can say anything, about anything? In a way what was said is that a type has not changed in sixty boring years.
Hopefully the other Al Khamsa groups are of the same?
I do not know the Doyle’s as a whole, but the ones I have seen are consistent in over all looks. Yes, different then the Davenport-Bradley group, or the so called Egyptian group. I often wondered what Michael did with this group as to DNA, if anything?
Oh well, I see a lot of things the Doyle’s show as to type. But then the photo’s are deceiving. Perhaps the same person takes them all, remarkably similar.
I thought the look on the person face holding the stallion was priceless.
Jackson
A croup is just a detail in a horse and also depends on the condition of the horse, i.e. fat and muscles will make a totally different view of the croup compared to an animal in less good condition, like a mare with foal at foot or a stallion in breeding season that is constantly worried over his harem and does not have time to eat. What the Doyles did in their breeding programme is unique and You may for sure question it, but we shall not forget that also Hanan and Estopa had their less good points and the in- and linebreeding on both of them repeated such. I do not know the Doyle horses in reality, just from pictures, but You can see that even after 60 years of inbreeding, those horses are functional and sound individuals, tested in endurance and other tests. I have talked with Rosemary and Terry about their breeding programme and I understood that they are aware of the qualities and the limitations of their horses. Nobody else did what they did and I cannot help but admire it.
Matthias
Hello Matthias,
If you take the time to go through the pictures of the damline you will see plenty of pictures of short croups and high sacral bone (just look at the Hilmyeh picture in Allbreed). You can see this short croup with high sacral bone on several of the Doyle horse pictures around, including stallions in normal condition. I’m not saying they’re not functional, sound or endurance proven horses but improving a croup while inbreeding mustn’t be easy if not impossible.
The Doyle’s used the Babsons Fa-Serr and Mahrouff on their mares and continued breeding with their offspring. I haven’t found pictures though, would be nice to see the results ’cause Babsons do have superb croups in general. So I wonder what they didn’t like about that cross to continue with their own 2 foundation horses.
The Estopa & Hanan story is different because they outcrossed to improve. The Doyle’s would be like your father in law only breeding from the Madkour x Maymoonah cross without ever going to an outside stallion.
I do understand the inbreeding in Om El Arab, Katharinenhof, Seidlitz, Filsinger, etc – if you’re familiar with the good points of a strong foundation mare it is very easy to breed good horses from it and by inbreeding you can easily keep your foundation even when you use regularly outside stallions
But I like to question what I don’t understand
Hello Patrick,
for me there is more than one type of croup in the Arabian breed, also a high sacral bone and a short croup are typical Arabian, among others. Just remember Bukra from Egypt and other mares of the most exceptional type. Today there is a trend to uniformity.
To the question of understanding or not understanding, maybe the Doyles just like the horses the way they are and do not see the need for changing some characteristics that others do not like. They do not breed for a market but stay to their ways. But they can answer this better than I can do.
Inbreeding is an interesting topic. It has its advantages as its disadvantages. And You are right that You cannot improve faults with it. The Doyle breeding philosophy is not mine, but I respect it and it gives credit to the genetic soundness of their foundation horses.
Matthias
Hello, Patrick. I am not sure which Patrick I am speaking to!
I do think that we differ in what we like or don’t like about croups!
The point I want to address is that one cannot “improve” in a closed herd, genetically. I disagree with that! It can certainly be done, and I believe we proved that with the Davenport group. El Alamein provided the links to some genetic traits that Charles felt the Davenport group needed, and his use with lines that were very similar or the same as his. With selection, his get improved some physical characteristics that in our opinions needed doing.
Genes are not changed into something permanent by inbreeding, and the Arabian horse is quite malleable overall. Look at all the different types we have, in the breed as a whole, within Al Khamsa, and within the Davenports, and even with the Kuhaylan Haifi group of the Davenports, for example.
We are extremely fond of the Doyle horses, and I think the Doyle family and their breeding companions have done wonderful things, and are still producing functional horses that suit their eye. Who could say more?
H.Doyle the stallion pictured, reminded me of a mare in the seventh edition of the Raswan Index. A mare from the Muhaira line, Fanaira. Don Hartzall had several mares to this line as well, I always looked forward to seeing them as well as Fanaira! To my eye beautiful Mares! We also had here at one time a stallion of that breeding from Don. Prior we had stallions and mares here of the Doyle breeding, very interesting breeding group. The Raswan Index shows the mare as to strain type. Ibn Fadl as an older horse showed this type as well. I associated these horse’s to Abayyiat type. (Today it is known by many, that type is not according to strain.)However, I have found that type is close to the tail-female, regardless of percentage maintained. Other’s will argue this point.
I am writing this or these remarks to say this Type Questioned, as to croups and type, is found in many groups, not just the Doyle Horses. Doing horses of extreme type and abilities. Richard Pritzlaff also had a stallion of this type, called John Doyle. Similar breeding to the above Stallion.
The paintings and illustrations from the past also show this type. They tend to reach out in movement, hind legs are straighter. I always loved riding this type. Trot was very strong, sometimes if trim poorly they would over reach. Not a fault of the horse but of the trimmer.
As to the Index, the mare as I remember was Fanaira, could be another of the same line? My memory is limited
as I have not seen this section in many years, like the late sixties.
This type is real and present in many lines, thanks to many groups and breeders.
Jackson Hensley – Bedouin Arabians (since 1969)
I saw H. Doyle in person and he is an impressive horse for sure. He does have a longer back though, and one can also see that in his sire Dib.. certainly in Ghadaf, and definitely in Ghada’f half brother Gulastra. Both Ghadaf and Gulastra are very present in Doyle pedigrees…
@Matthias: You’re right, the high sacral bone and short croup are regularly found and these horses have sometimes other exceptional features that makes them great producers but so far I have not encountered it in literature as a desired trait for Arabian horses. You’re right about Bukra (and many other Egyptian mares) but depends of course if you consider this feature as a fault or desired bedu characteristic. I had a stallion Vashara Chamal which was according to his breeder almost a carbon copy of Mahomed – the same incredible presence both as a stallion as coming straight out the desert feeling – and like Mahomed very faulty, most important being 2 different front hooves, wry tail and short croup with high sacral bone. I bought him in the first place for his size (1m62), movements and presence – a stallion I would prepare for eventing. Yet he tore a tendon in training and I sold him as a breeding stallion to Germany. I would never ever breed with such stallion! Yet I did (carefully) and I seriously regret that I didn’t breed him to all mares when I had him. His two offspring are without his main faults and we rode in the elder of the two this spring and as far as I can already judge he’s one of the best horses I have had under me so far.
@Jeanne: I agree with you & I don’t know how many of the original Davenports the current Davenports are descending from but certainly not restricted to 2 foundation horses. I can see the positive traits of the Doyle’s too but when I see this croup popping back I can’t stop thinking what made them restricting their breeding program to these 2 foundation horse while there are so many proven asils available (like the Davenports) that could improve it. I then notice they bred mares to Babson stallions (also good croups) and bred on with that offspring but apparently didn’t retain the 2nd generation so makes me wonder more why they apparently liked the 1st Babson x Doyle generation but not the 2nd? Would love to see pic’s on that Babson/Doyle cross. Apparently it is not unlogical that Davenports come to mind as nick for the Doyle as Edouard seems to have acquired a mare of such breeding now – love to see pic’s on that one as well.
@Jackson: you’re right, like Matthias, there are many Arabian horses with high sacral bone and short croupe but don’t know if the bedu ever praised it, always read about other croups as ideals. I have seen pictures on John Doyle and he looks as a magnificient one on the pictures I remember he did have a very high tail carriage sloping to the sacral and certainly not a sacral bone higher that the tail. Don’t remember if he had a short or long croup though. I really like Pritzlaff horses and remember a stand-up picture of Sir White Moon as being pretty close to my ideal (I remember he was out of Bint Moniet El Nefous with a Rabanna link in the sire line but don’t remember if the sire was Tibor TG or John Doyle)
Btw, my comment was not to discredit the Doyle horses whatsoever – only why the heck they didn’t try to breed out that croup and ended up with probably the most extreme inbreeding program on only 2 2 foundation horses instead.
In the ’70’s and ’80s Barb (Baird) and I worked to maintain a separate breeding group that only had Ghadaf and Gulida as the foundations. Nusi added beauty to heads but sloped croups. The “non-Nusis” (as we called them) had flatter croups, slightly longer backs and plainer heads. Omagh (stallion) and Ghadaffa (mare) were lovely representatives of the non-Nusi group. Over the years other Doyle breeders discarded this notion and now all Doyle horses combine the blood of all 3 foundation animals.