Comments on: The myth of Kuhaylan Jellabi tail female in Egyptian Arabian breedingThe myth of Kuhaylan Jellabi in Egyptian Arabian breeding http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/ Wed, 23 May 2012 18:47:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Lesley at Black Tent http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-112540 Lesley at Black Tent Wed, 25 May 2011 17:28:30 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-112540 Hi Michelle It depends what you mean by 'work ethic'. I'm not sure that horses have a 'work ethic' as such. After all, in the wild they don't need to work in order to eat; their food is either all around them, or it's not (in which case they starve...). Sure, they move from place to place to find grazing, but that's something they have to do, not something the choose to do (and choice - e.g. whether to work or not - would seem to be implicit in the term 'work ethic'). I think that the most we can say is that some horses are more willing to co-operate than others - and that's something that can be affected by many factors, including the horse's physical and mental state of health and, of course, the attitude of the people who handle them. And while obviously personality traits and temperament are to some extent inherited, I can't see why whatever parts of those traits are inherited should be attributed to the dam, since the stallion contributes 50% of his genes. The dam is of course usually in a position to influence her foal behaviourally (i.e as regards learned behaviour) far more than the sire, although that depends on how horses are kept - for example, if stallions run with their family groups - as ours do - they will usually spend a gteat deal of time interacting with - and playing with - the foals, so in that situation they too can influence behaviour - sometimes more than the mare. I think we should beware of what scientists cal 'reification' - that is,treating a concept as if it were a real thing. For example, intelligence (however we define it - and nobody has yet done that successfully) is not a thing, it's a description; same thing with 'work ethic' (however we define that). The concept of 'work ethic' is in any case largely a cultural phenomenon (as in one dictionarfy definition: a belief in the moral value of work); I'm not sure it's necessarily something that can be inherited. Hi Michelle

It depends what you mean by ‘work ethic’. I’m not sure that horses have a ‘work ethic’ as such. After all, in the wild they don’t need to work in order to eat; their food is either all around them, or it’s not (in which case they starve…). Sure, they move from place to place to find grazing, but that’s something they have to do, not something the choose to do (and choice – e.g. whether to work or not – would seem to be implicit in the term ‘work ethic’). I think that the most we can say is that some horses are more willing to co-operate than others – and that’s something that can be affected by many factors, including the horse’s physical and mental state of health and, of course, the attitude of the people who handle them. And while obviously personality traits and temperament are to some extent inherited, I can’t see why whatever parts of those traits are inherited should be attributed to the dam, since the stallion contributes 50% of his genes. The dam is of course usually in a position to influence her foal behaviourally (i.e as regards learned behaviour) far more than the sire, although that depends on how horses are kept – for example, if stallions run with their family groups – as ours do – they will usually spend a gteat deal of time interacting with – and playing with – the foals, so in that situation they too can influence behaviour – sometimes more than the mare.

I think we should beware of what scientists cal ‘reification’ – that is,treating a concept as if it were a real thing. For example, intelligence (however we define it – and nobody has yet done that successfully) is not a thing, it’s a description; same thing with ‘work ethic’ (however we define that). The concept of ‘work ethic’ is in any case largely a cultural phenomenon (as in one dictionarfy definition: a belief in the moral value of work); I’m not sure it’s necessarily something that can be inherited.

]]> By: Michelle http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-96045 Michelle Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:09:07 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-96045 Sorry, I meant to say that I am "NOT" an expert on horse genetics... Michelle Sorry, I meant to say that I am “NOT” an expert on horse genetics… Michelle

]]> By: Michelle http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-96044 Michelle Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:08:06 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-96044 Hi All, I will start out saying that I am by far an expert on genetics.. But I had a thought that I would like to share... Maybe we all are interpreting the bedouins tail female line with the filters of Modern values. Perhaps the Bedouin's main concern was not on the look of their horse but the work ethic of their horse. I have read in the past (sorry can not quote any one) that the work ethic of the horse is passed down through the female line. The female family line told more about the personality and the work ethic of the horse not the physical look. I know this is different than Carl Raswan's interpretation and he actually lived with the bedouins but maybe they didn't tell him "Everything!" From what I understand, the bedouin needed the Arabian horse for battle, racing and it had to live with their family. These were most likely the priority to them over looks. Anyway... it is something to think about. Michelle Hi All, I will start out saying that I am by far an expert on genetics.. But I had a thought that I would like to share… Maybe we all are interpreting the bedouins tail female line with the filters of Modern values. Perhaps the Bedouin’s main concern was not on the look of their horse but the work ethic of their horse. I have read in the past (sorry can not quote any one) that the work ethic of the horse is passed down through the female line. The female family line told more about the personality and the work ethic of the horse not the physical look. I know this is different than Carl Raswan’s interpretation and he actually lived with the bedouins but maybe they didn’t tell him “Everything!” From what I understand, the bedouin needed the Arabian horse for battle, racing and it had to live with their family. These were most likely the priority to them over looks. Anyway… it is something to think about. Michelle

]]> By: WC http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-84478 WC Mon, 21 Mar 2011 13:47:32 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-84478 Can anyone direct me to any testing or research that may have been done to prove that Turfa was Abbeyan? I wonder if it could be done now that there may not be any horses that have only TURFA or her descendants in their female line. Can anyone direct me to any testing or research that may have been done to prove that Turfa was Abbeyan? I wonder if it could be done now that there may not be any horses that have only TURFA or her descendants in their female line.

]]> By: R.J. Cadranell http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-17048 R.J. Cadranell Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:09:01 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-17048 Similar arguments were made about *Turfa when the importation document describing her as Kehilet Ajuz Al-Khorma came to light. Many breeders of *Turfa's descendants followed interpretations of Carl Raswan's teachings on strain breeding, particularly that 1. each strain was, back in the good old days of purist Bedouins, bred mostly to itself and had a relatively fixed, recognizable type, and 2. that each strain's original, ancient type will reappear in our modern time simply by mating together horses of the same tail-female strain. It was argued that *Turfa's living linebred tail-female descendants looked the way horses of the Abayyan strain were supposed to look, which proved that *Turfa herself must have been an Abayyah. Similar arguments were made about *Turfa when the importation document describing her as Kehilet Ajuz Al-Khorma came to light. Many breeders of *Turfa’s descendants followed interpretations of Carl Raswan’s teachings on strain breeding, particularly that 1. each strain was, back in the good old days of purist Bedouins, bred mostly to itself and had a relatively fixed, recognizable type, and 2. that each strain’s original, ancient type will reappear in our modern time simply by mating together horses of the same tail-female strain. It was argued that *Turfa’s living linebred tail-female descendants looked the way horses of the Abayyan strain were supposed to look, which proved that *Turfa herself must have been an Abayyah.

]]> By: Joe Ferriss http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-16933 Joe Ferriss Fri, 11 Dec 2009 19:20:14 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-16933 and perhaps also there is some sentiment associated with the romance of the Jellabi as has been written in the past so no one wants to make any changes to the records? I don't know, but some steadfastly still hold on to the traditional label. I still do not know why El Samraa descendants were originally listed in the Saqlawi sections and then later listed in the Kuhaylan sections. I have never heard any official explanations about any of the changes in the RAS stud book. and perhaps also there is some sentiment associated with the romance of the Jellabi as has been written in the past so no one wants to make any changes to the records? I don’t know, but some steadfastly still hold on to the traditional label. I still do not know why El Samraa descendants were originally listed in the Saqlawi sections and then later listed in the Kuhaylan sections. I have never heard any official explanations about any of the changes in the RAS stud book.

]]> By: Edouard http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-16930 Edouard Fri, 11 Dec 2009 17:33:33 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-16930 Nafaa al-Saghira's (and hence Mansour and Ibn Samhan's) strain was corrected from Kuhaylan Nawwaq (which is what RAS History book showed) to Kuhaylan Mimrah, without anyone fussing over it, and without any DNA evidence to support the Mimrah hypothesis, but only Dr. Mabrouk's records. I think most breeders don't want to admit the change in Bint Yemama's tail female from Kuhaylan Jellabi to Saqlawi Jadran despite the DNA hypothesis and Lady Anne's explicit mentions in her Journals, because there is a strain/type issue involved. Nafaa al-Saghira’s (and hence Mansour and Ibn Samhan’s) strain was corrected from Kuhaylan Nawwaq (which is what RAS History book showed) to Kuhaylan Mimrah, without anyone fussing over it, and without any DNA evidence to support the Mimrah hypothesis, but only Dr. Mabrouk’s records.

I think most breeders don’t want to admit the change in Bint Yemama’s tail female from Kuhaylan Jellabi to Saqlawi Jadran despite the DNA hypothesis and Lady Anne’s explicit mentions in her Journals, because there is a strain/type issue involved.

]]> By: Jeanne Craver http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-16929 Jeanne Craver Fri, 11 Dec 2009 16:44:09 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-16929 Each foal is a teacher. Just exactly what Charles has always said. He says the horses will show you where they want to go.... Each foal is a teacher.

Just exactly what Charles has always said. He says the horses will show you where they want to go….

]]> By: Joe Ferriss http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-16928 Joe Ferriss Fri, 11 Dec 2009 16:14:09 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-16928 So there you have it. Take your place on the great merry go round of Arabian horse ownership and breeding. There are expressed traits and there are carried traits. I don't think either one is more important than the other and together must be a part of understanding this breed. Since nature will ultimately determine what foal stands before you, I don't think there can be any sure black and white formula or guarantee of results other than to observe, learn and enjoy these results and reflect on them for the future. Each foal is a teacher which must be viewed in the context of balancing an awareness of the originating culture with the culture we are born into. This is why I always liked the Craver ads of the 1970s which talked about fitting Davenport horses into our western way of life. As for the Kuhaylan Jellabi designation traditionally listed for the Bint Yamama line, we may never know how it came to be handed down in the Egyptian records but it is a cultural feature of their records, regardless of how science identifies the genetics. So today, some modern Arab breeders of Egyptian lines in the Middle East are choosing between Saqlawi Jidran and Kuhaylan Jellaby as to how to name this line in their horses. I found this out quite by surprise from a Saudi who gave me a thoughtful explanation for his holding to the traditional designation for this Bint Yamama family despite his full awareness of the science. Perhaps this is what William Lancaster was trying to say about the fluidity of the culture which pragmatically explains its horses in various ways, which I presume are independent of the science of genetics. As for breeding pure in the strain with the Bint Yamama line, within the closed herd of Babson breeding you can never do it without also introducing profuse amounts of the very influential Saqlawi Jidran mare, Bint Serra. Even Princeton Faaris with his very high percentage of Bint Yamama lines is also profuse with Bint Serra and Bint Saada of the Saqlawi Jidran strain, with 4 lines to the refined looking Fay-El-Dine and one line to the refined looking Faddan. Even after all the pure-in-the-strain breeding in the Doyle pedigrees with the enormous intensity of the Saqlawi Jidran mare Ghazieh both through the stallion Mesaoud and the Doyle female lines, there is also a nearly equal amount of the blood of the Kuhaylan Rodan mare Rodania, a very influential mare whose look can be clearly seen in many Doyle horses today. Each foal is still a teacher. So there you have it. Take your place on the great merry go round of Arabian horse ownership and breeding. There are expressed traits and there are carried traits. I don’t think either one is more important than the other and together must be a part of understanding this breed. Since nature will ultimately determine what foal stands before you, I don’t think there can be any sure black and white formula or guarantee of results other than to observe, learn and enjoy these results and reflect on them for the future. Each foal is a teacher which must be viewed in the context of balancing an awareness of the originating culture with the culture we are born into. This is why I always liked the Craver ads of the 1970s which talked about fitting Davenport horses into our western way of life.

As for the Kuhaylan Jellabi designation traditionally listed for the Bint Yamama line, we may never know how it came to be handed down in the Egyptian records but it is a cultural feature of their records, regardless of how science identifies the genetics. So today, some modern Arab breeders of Egyptian lines in the Middle East are choosing between Saqlawi Jidran and Kuhaylan Jellaby as to how to name this line in their horses. I found this out quite by surprise from a Saudi who gave me a thoughtful explanation for his holding to the traditional designation for this Bint Yamama family despite his full awareness of the science. Perhaps this is what William Lancaster was trying to say about the fluidity of the culture which pragmatically explains its horses in various ways, which I presume are independent of the science of genetics.

As for breeding pure in the strain with the Bint Yamama line, within the closed herd of Babson breeding you can never do it without also introducing profuse amounts of the very influential Saqlawi Jidran mare, Bint Serra. Even Princeton Faaris with his very high percentage of Bint Yamama lines is also profuse with Bint Serra and Bint Saada of the Saqlawi Jidran strain, with 4 lines to the refined looking Fay-El-Dine and one line to the refined looking Faddan. Even after all the pure-in-the-strain breeding in the Doyle pedigrees with the enormous intensity of the Saqlawi Jidran mare Ghazieh both through the stallion Mesaoud and the Doyle female lines, there is also a nearly equal amount of the blood of the Kuhaylan Rodan mare Rodania, a very influential mare whose look can be clearly seen in many Doyle horses today. Each foal is still a teacher.

]]> By: Anita Enander http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-16865 Anita Enander Thu, 10 Dec 2009 06:45:18 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-16865 Hello. I have been reading the wonderful blog for some time, but have not posted until now. I would not have chosen to make my introduction in this way, but Hugh has grossly misunderstood the material I wrote several years ago, and that bears correction. I would have written sooner, but have been out of town, so please accept my apology for not commenting sooner in this discussion. The material to which Hugh is referring appeared as a boxed sidebar to a longer article titled "Conservation Breeding and the Horse In Front of You" which I wrote and which was published in "Al Khaima" magazine, v. 2 no. 1 (an insert in "Arabian Horse World" magazine in 2005 - sorry, I don't have the month handy). The sidebar was meant to be read in conjunction with the entire article, but I will reproduce just the sidebar here: "Dam-Line Delusions Although it is now recognized that mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is passed from mother to daughter, and provides markers that permit tracing of dam lines, breeders sometimes forget that the X chromosome, and its linked genes, are not exclusively passed from grandam to dam to daughter. This can be a rude shock to those who believe that female descendant A automatically carries an X chromosome from the tail-female ancestor. The dam (middle generation in our example) receives X chromosomes from both her dam and sire, but passes on only one X chromosome to her daughter. Thus, the daughter (third generation in this example) has a fifty percent chance of carrying the X chromosome from her grandsire (dam's sire) - and of course always carries the X chromosome from her sire - thus potentially losing the X chromosome from the commonly referenced "tail female" within two generations. In contrast, the Y chromosome is always passed from sire to son." The simple message from this sidebar is that the X chromosome in any given horse does not necessarily come from the maternal grand-dam (the tail-female line), but may be passed from the maternal grand-sire. Thus, there is no continuity in the material on the X chromosome passed from grandmother to daughter to granddaughter -- in marked contrast to the mtDNA which is passed along the tail-female line. As both Michael and Ambar have noted, the matter of the X chromosome is quite separate from the 31 autosomal chromosomes. To impute a disproportionate "influence" of the sire because of the possibility that one of the X chromosomes in a filly (or the X chromosome in a colt) came from the maternal grand-sire is just not correct: in either case the X chromosome comes from the bottom half of the pedigree -- not the sire line. Anita Hello. I have been reading the wonderful blog for some time, but have not posted until now. I would not have chosen to make my introduction in this way, but Hugh has grossly misunderstood the material I wrote several years ago, and that bears correction. I would have written sooner, but have been out of town, so please accept my apology for not commenting sooner in this discussion.

The material to which Hugh is referring appeared as a boxed sidebar to a longer article titled “Conservation Breeding and the Horse In Front of You” which I wrote and which was published in “Al Khaima” magazine, v. 2 no. 1 (an insert in “Arabian Horse World” magazine in 2005 – sorry, I don’t have the month handy). The sidebar was meant to be read in conjunction with the entire article, but I will reproduce just the sidebar here:

“Dam-Line Delusions
Although it is now recognized that mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is passed from mother to daughter, and provides markers that permit tracing of dam lines, breeders sometimes forget that the X chromosome, and its linked genes, are not exclusively passed from grandam to dam to daughter. This can be a rude shock to those who believe that female descendant A automatically carries an X chromosome from the tail-female ancestor. The dam (middle generation in our example) receives X chromosomes from both her dam and sire, but passes on only one X chromosome to her daughter. Thus, the daughter (third generation in this example) has a fifty percent chance of carrying the X chromosome from her grandsire (dam’s sire) – and of course always carries the X chromosome from her sire – thus potentially losing the X chromosome from the commonly referenced “tail female” within two generations. In contrast, the Y chromosome is always passed from sire to son.”

The simple message from this sidebar is that the X chromosome in any given horse does not necessarily come from the maternal grand-dam (the tail-female line), but may be passed from the maternal grand-sire. Thus, there is no continuity in the material on the X chromosome passed from grandmother to daughter to granddaughter — in marked contrast to the mtDNA which is passed along the tail-female line.

As both Michael and Ambar have noted, the matter of the X chromosome is quite separate from the 31 autosomal chromosomes. To impute a disproportionate “influence” of the sire because of the possibility that one of the X chromosomes in a filly (or the X chromosome in a colt) came from the maternal grand-sire is just not correct: in either case the X chromosome comes from the bottom half of the pedigree — not the sire line.

Anita

]]> By: Hugh Fillmore http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-16864 Hugh Fillmore Thu, 10 Dec 2009 06:45:07 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-16864 Thanks Ambar The 22 Autosome Pairs was for a Human. I guess each Mammal has a different number. So, it looks like Anita's article indicates that the Sire has the most influence in Sex determination and nothing more. So we now all agree that the Sire & Dam pass equal ammounts of their Physical Attributes to their foal and we also agree that there is no such thing as Pure-In-Strain horses - since virtually every pedigree contains horses of different Strains. Carl Raswan used Color Coded Pedigrees to show the percentage of each Strain in a pedigree. I calculate the percentage of Kuhaylan blood in my horses Pedigrees which range from 70% to 80%(Because of the Kuhaylan Sire-Lines) - even though they are Saqlawi & Dahman Tail-Line and they are mostly all Kuhaylan Phenotypes as you would expect. Since a Stallion can produce many more foals than a mare - His Genetic Attributes can permeate a group of horses such as the Babsons and Pritzlaff horses which only had one stallion each(for 78 & 50 yrs Resp). Rashad Ibn Nazeer was Kuhaylan T-L and Phenotype and Fadl was Kuhaylan Phenotype, which explains why those horses look like they do even though they are Saqlawi and Dahman T-L. You can see some high % Kuhaylans - Soo Shahloul(72%), DE Nahed(70%), & Rashad Nefuso RSI(76%) at www.SOEgyptianArabians.com - - Hugh Thanks Ambar The 22 Autosome Pairs was for a Human. I guess each Mammal has a different number.
So, it looks like Anita’s article indicates that the Sire has the most influence in Sex determination and nothing more.
So we now all agree that the Sire & Dam pass equal ammounts of their Physical Attributes to their foal and we also agree that there is no such thing as Pure-In-Strain horses – since virtually every pedigree contains horses of different Strains. Carl Raswan used Color Coded Pedigrees to show the percentage of each Strain in a pedigree.
I calculate the percentage of Kuhaylan blood in my horses Pedigrees which range from 70% to 80%(Because of the Kuhaylan Sire-Lines) – even though they are Saqlawi & Dahman Tail-Line and they are mostly all Kuhaylan Phenotypes as you would expect.
Since a Stallion can produce many more foals than a mare – His Genetic Attributes can permeate a group of horses such as the Babsons and Pritzlaff horses which only had one stallion each(for 78 & 50 yrs Resp). Rashad Ibn Nazeer was Kuhaylan T-L and Phenotype and Fadl was Kuhaylan Phenotype,
which explains why those horses look like they do even though they are Saqlawi and Dahman T-L.
You can see some high % Kuhaylans – Soo Shahloul(72%), DE Nahed(70%), & Rashad Nefuso RSI(76%) at http://www.SOEgyptianArabians.com

– - Hugh

]]> By: Ambar http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-16849 Ambar Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:19:52 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-16849 Hugh -- don't know why you're asking about 22 pairs of autosomes, as horses have 31 pairs, but yes, a horse gets 31 autosomes and a sex chromosome from each parent (in normal reproduction -- we're ignoring the sorts of abnormalities that result in, eg, XXY individuals.) Found a nifty karyotype of a male horse which clearly shows the relative sizes of each chromosome: http://placentation.ucsd.edu/horsebg/horse20.html Hugh — don’t know why you’re asking about 22 pairs of autosomes, as horses have 31 pairs, but yes, a horse gets 31 autosomes and a sex chromosome from each parent (in normal reproduction — we’re ignoring the sorts of abnormalities that result in, eg, XXY individuals.)

Found a nifty karyotype of a male horse which clearly shows the relative sizes of each chromosome: http://placentation.ucsd.edu/horsebg/horse20.html

]]> By: Edouard http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-16845 Edouard Wed, 09 Dec 2009 23:03:14 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-16845 Hugh, All these names, Kuhaylan, Saqlawi, are just names, family names. They don't mean anything phenotype-wise. A Saqlawi can be either masculine or feminine, same for a Kuhaylan. He will masculine if he has masculine ancestry and if he was bred to look masculine, regardless of strain. Same for Saqlawi and other strains. Pardon the analogy, but does a Fillmore mean one is tall or short? There may be tall Fillmores and short ones, and that has nothing to do with being a Fillmore. It just has to do with who is tall and who is shorter in your family, regardless of family names. Does that make sense? Hugh,

All these names, Kuhaylan, Saqlawi, are just names, family names. They don’t mean anything phenotype-wise. A Saqlawi can be either masculine or feminine, same for a Kuhaylan. He will masculine if he has masculine ancestry and if he was bred to look masculine, regardless of strain. Same for Saqlawi and other strains.

Pardon the analogy, but does a Fillmore mean one is tall or short? There may be tall Fillmores and short ones, and that has nothing to do with being a Fillmore. It just has to do with who is tall and who is shorter in your family, regardless of family names. Does that make sense?

]]> By: Hugh Fillmore http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-16843 Hugh Fillmore Wed, 09 Dec 2009 22:39:22 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-16843 Michael - Where do the 22 Pairs of Autosomes in a given horse come from?? 22 Singles from Each Parent? - - - Hugh Michael – Where do the 22 Pairs of Autosomes in a given horse come from??
22 Singles from Each Parent?

– - – Hugh

]]> By: Hugh Fillmore http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-16839 Hugh Fillmore Wed, 09 Dec 2009 21:19:43 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-16839 Michael - So what is your explanation for the Predominately Kuhaylan Phenotype Babson Egyptians that are Saklawi Tail-Line ? - - - Hugh Michael – So what is your explanation for the Predominately Kuhaylan Phenotype Babson Egyptians that are Saklawi Tail-Line ?

– - – Hugh

]]> By: Michael Bowling http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-16828 Michael Bowling Wed, 09 Dec 2009 18:43:29 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-16828 The X and Y chromosomes function largely (not entirely, in the case of the X, but still largely) in the process of sex determination. The great bulk of the genetic material is carried on the autosomes, so I can't see any basis to claim that the X and Y "determine the Physical Attributes" of anything, apart from the fact that sex is a physical attribute. I don't know what of Anita's you're reading, but I'll hazard a guess that you're mis-interpreting it. It is not controversial to claim that the bulk of the ancestry in a pedigree is likely to determine the general characteristics of the individual wearing that pedigree, or that ancestors can make significant contributions without being present on the sire or dam line. It's your attributing the difference to the sex chromosomes that's causing the difficulty. The X and Y chromosomes function largely (not entirely, in the case of the X, but still largely) in the process of sex determination. The great bulk of the genetic material is carried on the autosomes, so I can’t see any basis to claim that the X and Y “determine the Physical Attributes” of anything, apart from the fact that sex is a physical attribute. I don’t know what of Anita’s you’re reading, but I’ll hazard a guess that you’re mis-interpreting it.

It is not controversial to claim that the bulk of the ancestry in a pedigree is likely to determine the general characteristics of the individual wearing that pedigree, or that ancestors can make significant contributions without being present on the sire or dam line. It’s your attributing the difference to the sex chromosomes that’s causing the difficulty.

]]> By: Hugh Fillmore http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-16806 Hugh Fillmore Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:35:58 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-16806 The mtDNA "Thread" that traces the Parentage Linkage is Independant of the X and Y Chromosomes - Which determine the Physical Attributes of a horse. Anita's article also mentions that fact! Ambar -The 31 "Chromosome pairs" are actually Allies of the the X & Y Chromosome of which there is only ONE of each. This is NOT NEW INFORMATION and has been known for 50 Years and applys to ALL Mammals and is well known by dog breeders. Your "Fat" X Chromosome theory doesn't work - Since the Sire also Passes a "Fat" X Chromosome to EVERY Daughter !! And again the Sire's X Chromosome has a 50/50 chance of being passed-on to his Daughter's Daughter, etc. !!!!! Ralph & Jeanne - If it Walks Like a Duck and Quacks Like a Duck - It's Probably a Duck!! And my explaination above, again Explains why the Babson & Pritzlaff horses have Wide/Powerful Kuhaylan Bodys and Personalitys - Even though their Dam-Lines follow a Saklawi mtDNA "Thread-Line" - -Which if followed far enough back would turn back into a Kuhaylan Dam-Line(Carl Raswan)!! - - - Hugh The mtDNA “Thread” that traces the Parentage Linkage is Independant of the X and Y Chromosomes – Which determine the Physical Attributes of a horse. Anita’s
article also mentions that fact!

Ambar -The 31 “Chromosome pairs” are actually Allies of the the X & Y Chromosome of which there is only ONE of each. This is NOT NEW INFORMATION and has been known for 50 Years and applys to ALL Mammals and is well known by dog breeders. Your “Fat” X Chromosome theory
doesn’t work – Since the Sire also Passes a “Fat” X Chromosome to EVERY Daughter !!
And again the Sire’s X Chromosome has a 50/50 chance of being passed-on to his Daughter’s Daughter, etc. !!!!!

Ralph & Jeanne – If it Walks Like a Duck and Quacks Like a Duck – It’s Probably a Duck!! And my explaination above, again
Explains why the Babson & Pritzlaff horses
have Wide/Powerful Kuhaylan Bodys and Personalitys – Even though their Dam-Lines follow a Saklawi mtDNA “Thread-Line” – -Which if followed far enough back would turn back into a Kuhaylan Dam-Line(Carl Raswan)!!

– - – Hugh

]]> By: Edouard http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-16769 Edouard Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:10:29 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-16769 Okay. I do recognize the influence of the Kuhaylan Jellabi horses like Ibn Yashmak and Kazmeen in the middle of the Egyptian pedigrees, so I will change the title of this entry into "the myth of the Kuhaylan Jellabi tail female in Egpytian breeding". Okay. I do recognize the influence of the Kuhaylan Jellabi horses like Ibn Yashmak and Kazmeen in the middle of the Egyptian pedigrees, so I will change the title of this entry into “the myth of the Kuhaylan Jellabi tail female in Egpytian breeding”.

]]> By: Lorriee M. Golanty http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-16761 Lorriee M. Golanty Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:20:09 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-16761 This reminds me of the hysterics and shock that occurred in the Arabian Community, (US) when a number of very attractive Polish bred Arabians were imported into the US and the Poles had attributed the Saqlawi strain to big square solid looking horses and the Kuhaylah to the very slim and feminine looking imports. Oh, my goodness, the rending of clothes, the sack cloth and ashes! It was highly amusing. So on, and on, it goes, and where it stops, nobody knows. From the standpoint of both scientific studies and historical context, very interesting. It now seems to be as important as the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin, when considering all the other genetic issues confronting us today in breeding Arabian Horses. This reminds me of the hysterics and shock that occurred in the Arabian Community, (US) when a number of very attractive Polish bred Arabians were imported into the US and the Poles had attributed the Saqlawi strain to big square solid looking horses and the Kuhaylah to the very slim and feminine looking imports.

Oh, my goodness, the rending of clothes, the sack cloth and ashes! It was highly amusing. So on, and on, it goes, and where it stops, nobody knows.

From the standpoint of both scientific studies and historical context, very interesting. It now seems to be as important as the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin, when considering all the other genetic issues confronting us today in breeding Arabian Horses.

]]> By: Ralph Suarez http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-16758 Ralph Suarez Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:23:47 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-16758 Thanks Ambar. :) Thanks Ambar. :)

]]> By: Ambar http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-16727 Ambar Tue, 08 Dec 2009 00:36:21 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-16727 <i>SIRE-LINES CONTRIBUTE 2/3rds OF A HORSE’S GENETIC ATTRIBUTES WHILE DAM LINES ONLY CONTRIBUTE 1/3rd</i> In the famous categorization of "lies, damned lies, and statistics" I would have to characterize this (politely) as statistics. The analysis posted by Hugh (which I refuse to attribute to Anita without actually reading her article first) is entirely focused on the sex chromosomes while completely neglecting the other 31 chromosome pairs which carry the vast bulk of the horse's "genetic attributes". Indeed, the Y chromosome is relatively small compared to the X, so it can be easily seen that a mare has more genetic influence on her sons, compared to their sire, than on her daughters. That said, this analysis also neglects the contribution of the mitochondrial DNA, which passes 100% through the mare line with no contribution by the sire. So once you add that in, the mare wins again. SIRE-LINES CONTRIBUTE 2/3rds OF A HORSE’S GENETIC ATTRIBUTES WHILE DAM LINES ONLY CONTRIBUTE 1/3rd

In the famous categorization of “lies, damned lies, and statistics” I would have to characterize this (politely) as statistics.

The analysis posted by Hugh (which I refuse to attribute to Anita without actually reading her article first) is entirely focused on the sex chromosomes while completely neglecting the other 31 chromosome pairs which carry the vast bulk of the horse’s “genetic attributes”. Indeed, the Y chromosome is relatively small compared to the X, so it can be easily seen that a mare has more genetic influence on her sons, compared to their sire, than on her daughters.

That said, this analysis also neglects the contribution of the mitochondrial DNA, which passes 100% through the mare line with no contribution by the sire. So once you add that in, the mare wins again.

]]> By: Ralph Suarez http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-16722 Ralph Suarez Mon, 07 Dec 2009 22:03:52 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-16722 Hi Hugh, I just saw the post that you made and I didn't want it to get lost, as the information that you present is provocative, so, I hope you will forgive me if I "cut and paste" the most important part: "Anita Enander published an article titled, “Dam Line Delusions” in Al Khaima Vol.II, pg 44. This article points out that a Mare receives X Chromosomes from both her Dam & Sire, but only passes one of her (2) X chromosomes to her daughter. Thus, the daughter has a 50% chance of Receiving the X Chromosome from her Dam’s Sire and Breaking the “Tail-Female” Genetic Linkage. The Sire always passes his X Chromosome to his Daughters(Which comes from his Dam’s Sire 50% of the time), and the Sire always passes his Y Chromosome to his Sons (Ad Infinitum). A little math shows that Sire-Line Genetics are passed on 62.5% of the time while Dam-Line Genetics are passed on 37.5% of the time. – - Sooo, Sire-Lines are ~ twice as important as Dam Lines" Thanks for posting this information and I hope that Anita will post her thoughts too. Ralph Hi Hugh,

I just saw the post that you made and I didn’t want it to get lost, as the information that you present is provocative, so, I hope you will forgive me if I “cut and paste” the most important part:

“Anita Enander published an article titled, “Dam Line Delusions” in Al Khaima Vol.II, pg 44. This article points out that a Mare receives X Chromosomes from both her Dam & Sire, but only passes one of her (2) X chromosomes to her daughter. Thus, the daughter has a 50% chance of Receiving the X Chromosome from her Dam’s Sire and Breaking the “Tail-Female” Genetic Linkage. The Sire always passes his X Chromosome to his Daughters(Which comes from his Dam’s Sire 50% of the time), and the Sire always passes his Y Chromosome to his Sons (Ad Infinitum). A little math shows that Sire-Line Genetics are passed on 62.5% of the time while Dam-Line Genetics are passed on 37.5% of the time. – – Sooo, Sire-Lines are ~ twice as important as Dam Lines”

Thanks for posting this information and I hope that Anita will post her thoughts too.

Ralph

]]> By: Hugh Fillmore http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-16470 Hugh Fillmore Wed, 02 Dec 2009 22:16:20 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-16470 Kuhaylans are alive & well,- Especially in the U.S. Pritzlaff & Babson Horses. SIRE-LINES CONTRIBUTE 2/3rds OF A HORSE'S GENETIC ATTRIBUTES WHILE DAM LINES ONLY CONTRIBUTE 1/3rd. The Dam-line sys in current use to identify the Strain of a horse is Seriously Flawed. Anita Enander published an article titled, "Dam Line Delusions" in Al Khaima Vol.II, pg 44. This article points out that a Mare receives X Chromosomes from both her Dam & Sire, but only passes one of her (2) X chromosomes to her daughter. Thus, the daughter has a 50% chance of Receiving the X Chromosome from her Dam's Sire and Breaking the "Tail-Female" Genetic Linkage. The Sire always passes his X Chromosome to his Daughters(Which comes from his Dam's Sire 50% of the time), and the Sire always passes his Y Chromosome to his Sons (Ad Infinitum). A little math shows that Sire-Line Genetics are passed on 62.5% of the time while Dam-Line Genetics are passed on 37.5% of the time. - - Sooo, Sire-Lines are ~ twice as important as Dam Lines. This explains why the Babson & Pritzlaff horses are mostly Kuhaylan Phenotypes (and Blood) - Even though most are Saklawi, Dahman, or Hadban Tail-Line !!! It was the Kuhaylan "Mimri" Blood of Mansour & Mabrouk Manial, & the Kuhaylan "Rabda" Blood of Rabdan El Azrak & Koheilan El mossen, & the Kuhaylan "Jallabi" Blood of Ibn Yashmak & Kazmeen,& the Kuhaylan "Rodan" blood of Rashad Ibn Nazeer & Alaa Al Din - that Permeated the ALL IMPORTANT SIRE-LINES and made the Babson & Pritzlaff horses Predominately Kuhaylan in Phenotype(and Blood)!! Only a fool, would believe that the once 100% Kuhaylan Arabians in the World(Carl Raswan), could Virtually Vanish in ~ 8 Generations!! - - - - Hugh Fillmore Kuhaylans are alive & well,- Especially in
the U.S. Pritzlaff & Babson Horses.
SIRE-LINES CONTRIBUTE 2/3rds OF A HORSE’S GENETIC ATTRIBUTES WHILE DAM LINES ONLY CONTRIBUTE 1/3rd.
The Dam-line sys in current use to identify the Strain of a horse is Seriously Flawed. Anita Enander published an article titled, “Dam Line Delusions” in Al Khaima Vol.II, pg 44. This article points out that a Mare receives X Chromosomes from both her Dam & Sire, but only passes one of her (2) X chromosomes to her daughter. Thus, the daughter has a 50% chance of Receiving the X Chromosome from her Dam’s Sire and Breaking the “Tail-Female” Genetic Linkage. The Sire always passes his X Chromosome to his Daughters(Which comes from his Dam’s Sire 50% of the time), and the Sire always passes his Y Chromosome to his Sons (Ad Infinitum). A little math shows that Sire-Line Genetics are passed on 62.5% of the time while Dam-Line Genetics are passed on 37.5% of the time. – - Sooo, Sire-Lines are ~ twice as important as Dam Lines.

This explains why the Babson & Pritzlaff horses are mostly Kuhaylan Phenotypes (and Blood) – Even though most are Saklawi, Dahman, or Hadban Tail-Line !!!
It was the Kuhaylan “Mimri” Blood of Mansour & Mabrouk Manial, & the Kuhaylan “Rabda” Blood of Rabdan El Azrak & Koheilan El mossen, & the Kuhaylan “Jallabi” Blood of Ibn Yashmak & Kazmeen,& the Kuhaylan “Rodan” blood of Rashad Ibn Nazeer & Alaa Al Din – that Permeated the ALL IMPORTANT SIRE-LINES and made the Babson & Pritzlaff horses Predominately Kuhaylan in Phenotype(and Blood)!!

Only a fool, would believe that the once 100% Kuhaylan Arabians in the World(Carl Raswan), could Virtually Vanish in ~ 8 Generations!!

– - – - Hugh Fillmore

]]> By: Edouard http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-14800 Edouard Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:17:03 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-14800 It totally is, in my opinion. It totally is, in my opinion.

]]> By: Alma Cizek http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-14794 Alma Cizek Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:10:52 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-14794 Is not "pure in strain" a mute point? Is not “pure in strain” a mute point?

]]> By: Jenny Krieg http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-14680 Jenny Krieg Sat, 17 Oct 2009 23:31:43 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-14680 And here we also run into the issue of strain vs. type... And here we also run into the issue of strain vs. type…

]]> By: Jeanne Craver http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-14658 Jeanne Craver Fri, 16 Oct 2009 22:46:09 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-14658 In that case, then, Ralph, perhaps what we are expecting to see is not grounded in reality, but in faith. And that is spoken as someone who has had some collisions with reality over the last few decades! In that case, then, Ralph, perhaps what we are expecting to see is not grounded in reality, but in faith. And that is spoken as someone who has had some collisions with reality over the last few decades!

]]> By: Ralph Suarez http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-14644 Ralph Suarez Fri, 16 Oct 2009 13:27:05 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-14644 Thanks RJ. There is a reason why I like this blog so much and you are certainly one of them. I think what "seals the deal" on this matter is the mtDNA findings, as the journal entries provided by Lady Anne Blunt, while coming from a historically significant source, is not enough "proof" to change the strain name of these horses for many people, particularly SE breeders. I believe the mtDNA is the scientific underscore needed for Lady Anne Blunt's comments/observations. Kuhaylan-type and Saqlawi-type are the easiest phenotypes to identify in Arabian Horses and not unique to Egypt, as other breeding programs catalogue horses by these phenotypes and Poland comes quickly to my mind. What makes the case of Kuhaylan Jellabi vs. Saqlawi Jedran so difficult to embrace and accept, are specifically the Babson and Babson-influenced horses of this strain, who phenotypically are Kuhaylan horses and not Saqlawi. That's my personal challenge in this issue. What I am reading does not make sense with what I am seeing. Thanks RJ. There is a reason why I like this blog so much and you are certainly one of them.

I think what “seals the deal” on this matter is the mtDNA findings, as the journal entries provided by Lady Anne Blunt, while coming from a historically significant source, is not enough “proof” to change the strain name of these horses for many people, particularly SE breeders. I believe the mtDNA is the scientific underscore needed for Lady Anne Blunt’s comments/observations.

Kuhaylan-type and Saqlawi-type are the easiest phenotypes to identify in Arabian Horses and not unique to Egypt, as other breeding programs catalogue horses by these phenotypes and Poland comes quickly to my mind.

What makes the case of Kuhaylan Jellabi vs. Saqlawi Jedran so difficult to embrace and accept, are specifically the Babson and Babson-influenced horses of this strain, who phenotypically are Kuhaylan horses and not Saqlawi. That’s my personal challenge in this issue. What I am reading does not make sense with what I am seeing.

]]> By: R.J. Cadranell http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-14618 R.J. Cadranell Thu, 15 Oct 2009 19:58:00 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-14618 There is more than just the mtDNA findings, of course. Lady Anne Blunt made detailed journal entries after several visits to Prince Mohamed Ali's stud. Lady Anne never mentioned seeing any Kehilan Jellabi horses. She does make repeated references to a mare she described as "the Seglawieh Yemama half-sister to Mesaoud." We know that a mare the Prince called Bint Yemama was a significant foundation horse for him, and that he sometimes sold horses from her line as Seglawis (e.g. Kafifan). As for looking at Bint Yemama's descendants and deciding whether they "look Kehilan" or "look Seglawi," that is a highly subjective determination at best. It also requires two assumptions, neither of which I am willing to make: 1. There was once a golden age when all, or most, Arabian horses from a particular substrain looked enough alike that their substrains could be identified simply by looking at them, and 2. the original type from that golden age can be reliably and systematically re-created by breeding tail-female descendants to each other. There is more than just the mtDNA findings, of course. Lady Anne Blunt made detailed journal entries after several visits to Prince Mohamed Ali’s stud. Lady Anne never mentioned seeing any Kehilan Jellabi horses. She does make repeated references to a mare she described as “the Seglawieh Yemama half-sister to Mesaoud.” We know that a mare the Prince called Bint Yemama was a significant foundation horse for him, and that he sometimes sold horses from her line as Seglawis (e.g. Kafifan).

As for looking at Bint Yemama’s descendants and deciding whether they “look Kehilan” or “look Seglawi,” that is a highly subjective determination at best. It also requires two assumptions, neither of which I am willing to make: 1. There was once a golden age when all, or most, Arabian horses from a particular substrain looked enough alike that their substrains could be identified simply by looking at them, and 2. the original type from that golden age can be reliably and systematically re-created by breeding tail-female descendants to each other.

]]> By: Ralph Suarez http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-14612 Ralph Suarez Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:30:45 +0000 http://daughterofthewind.org/the-myth-of-kuhaylan-jellabi-in-egyptian-arabian-breeding/#comment-14612 Hi Edouard. Hope this short entry finds you well, in your corner of the world. I had forgotten this blog entry and thanks to Carla, I was reminded of it. I had just posted on my blog, Judi Forbis' study of the 3 KJ stallions. For me, her study was significant, as I knew personally 2 of the 3 horses studied and the 3rd horse, Mohummed Sadden just died at the end of September. So, I posted my KJ entry and then, Carla posted her comment and your words about being baffled by Arabian Horse breeders who still embrace the KJ strain in Egyptian Arabian Horse breeding hit me like a rock. It is not easy to accept Michael Bowling's mtDNA studies. For me, it is a bigger issue involved. Anyway, I wrote a new entry on my blog, pointing everyone back here, to your thoughts and to Michael's articles on the CMK site. As always, your blog is provocative and really helps me to stretch as a person, to really question my beliefs and push me to a higher place of learning, as I leave old myths behind, to embrace change and new places to discover. Thank you. Hi Edouard. Hope this short entry finds you well, in your corner of the world. I had forgotten this blog entry and thanks to Carla, I was reminded of it. I had just posted on my blog, Judi Forbis’ study of the 3 KJ stallions. For me, her study was significant, as I knew personally 2 of the 3 horses studied and the 3rd horse, Mohummed Sadden just died at the end of September. So, I posted my KJ entry and then, Carla posted her comment and your words about being baffled by Arabian Horse breeders who still embrace the KJ strain in Egyptian Arabian Horse breeding hit me like a rock. It is not easy to accept Michael Bowling’s mtDNA studies. For me, it is a bigger issue involved. Anyway, I wrote a new entry on my blog, pointing everyone back here, to your thoughts and to Michael’s articles on the CMK site. As always, your blog is provocative and really helps me to stretch as a person, to really question my beliefs and push me to a higher place of learning, as I leave old myths behind, to embrace change and new places to discover. Thank you.

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