Two new proposals to add horses to the Al Khamsa Roster

By Edouard Aldahdah

Posted on November 17th, 2009 in Egypt

These have been quite busy days for me, and I have not been able to write as often as I wanted to. That said, I wanted to quick highlight the fact that two new proposals to add new horses to the Al Khamsa Roster have been sent to the Al Khamsa Board of Directors. The first was sent by Joe Ferriss, and concerns the three Tahawi (an Egyptian peasant tribe of Arab stock) mares that are the foudation of Egypt’s Hamdan Stables: Fulla (a Shuwaymah Sabbah), Futna (a Kuhaylah Khallawiyah), and Bint Barakat (a Saqlawiyah Jadraniyah). The second proposal (click here if you interested in reading it) was submitted by yours truly and concerns the mare *Lebnaniah, a Ma’naqiyah Sbayliyah imported by W.R. Hearst to the USA in 1947. The AK Board is currently discussing both proposals.

30 Responses to “Two new proposals to add horses to the Al Khamsa Roster

  1. Thank you Edouard for mentioning my proposal on these three Tahawi mares. One thing I want to immediately point out is the importance of thorough research and using all possible references and information sources in determining ancestral information.

    The links you post for the 3 Tahawi mares are links to the All Breed Database. These databases are not always able to provide correct pedigree information as the information is often tabulated and entered by people who do not engage in research.

    You will notice that in all 3 pedigrees the paternal grandsire Barakat is shown as being sired by Mesaoud and out of Bushra both early Crabbet horses who never left England and were never in Egypt. Furthermore the Barakat shown in these All Breed Database pedigrees is shown as a stallion. However this Barakat is actually a mare bred by Wilfrid Blunt and she had no offspring. The real stallion Barakat is Dahman Shahwan bred by the Anazeh tribe of Sheikh Midjhem Ibn Meheyd.

    Also in the All Breed Database the pedigree for Fulla [Folla] shows her dam to be the mare Sabah 1932 by El Deree. There is no 1932 daughter of El Deree by this name, unless someone thought it was Sabha, the 1930 daughter out of Radia (Gamil Manial x Aroussa), who never had any produce. The real dam of Fulla [Folla] is a Shuweymah Sabbah mare of Abdul Hamid el Tahawi.

    I hope this will clarify things for anyone using the above mentioned pedigree links from All Breed Database, because all three of those are in error from the correct information available.

  2. opps, with regard to Mesaoud, I meant to say that once he left Egypt as a 4 year old he never returned and was a sire in England only. But either way he is not in the pedigree of the Tahawi mares.

    I might also add that the AHA Datasource is also one which cannot be relied on for the final word. One must consider that it might be necessary to check all resources to determine the correct ancestral information. The AHA Datasource continues to list the Egyptian mare Bint Dalal [al Hamrah] as being sired by Rabdan but in fact she is sired by Rabdan’s son Hadban instead. This makes many Egyptian pedigrees in error when extended from the AHA Datasource. Al Khamsa has it correct. Another interesting point is that Morafic’s first born foal in the Datasource is Balabel I (x Rooda) who was born the same year Morafic was according to their information. Wow that is some sire!

  3. Joe — that the Allbreedpedigree site contains errors is always good to remind people. In addition to data entered by the enthusiastic but less knowledgable, there are bugs in the system which take changes meant to be applied to one horse and apply them instead to another of the same name.

    Nonetheless, I am always confused by the pains people take to explain errors present (at the time of their writing) in Allbreedpedigree, because it seems to be that a) it takes more time to explain it than it would to correct it, and b) that ANYONE with correct data CAN correct the site is one of its strengths.

    Respectfully,

    Ambar

  4. I linked to allbreeding without checking the pedigrees carefully. Haste makes waste as they say. That said, the Fed’aan never bred Dahman Shahwan which is a strain from Southern Arabia. They might have bred Dahman Amer, through the marbat of Ibn Hemsni of the neighbouring Sba’ah, and Ali al-Barazi has it that Barakat was a Dahman Amer originally from this marbat..

    I will take out the links to Allbreed

  5. Hi Edouard,
    Maybe you can put up Ghaniya’s picture with this topic, she is double Fulla.

    Yours sincerely, Monique

  6. send it to me

  7. The Crabbet mare *Bushra did leave England — she was sold at the 12th Crabbet sale on July 7, 1900 and exported to U.S.A., where she produced *Ibn Mahruss and Sira. But Joe’s larger point is of course correct — *Bushra’s daughter Barakat is obviously not the same horse as the stallion Barakat, and *Bushra is not in these Tahawi pedigrees.

  8. Thanks R.J. for correcting that. I should have remembered that Bushra came to the U.S. since her son Ibn Mahruss is pictured in the very first U.S. studbook Vol 1, 1913 with Said Abdallah at Davenport’s. I recall that wonderful photo, and I have it also on a postcard. The point I intended to make about Bushra though was that she was never in Egypt and never contributed to the breeding there.

  9. Thanks also Edouard. I should also mention here that I had included Edouard’s strain correction in my proposal on these Tahawi mares. From his information it appears that Barakat is of the Dahman Amer rather than Dahman Shahwan. It would not surprise me that perhaps in the compilation of the Hamdan printed edition [in English] of its herd book well after the acquisition of these mares that it would have been transcribed as Dahman Shahwan, the more familiar substrain to Egyptians by the time of publishing the Hamdan book.

  10. very interesting now, in germany we have the Blood of NEFROTETE out of BINT FOLLA (BINT FULLA) – 1956.
    She have founded a damline…..But many German Breederd dont like them………..i dont know why.

  11. It is exciting to hear that finally these horses are going to get a thorough ‘vetting’ and closer look by competent AK researchers. I have never totally understood why they have not been accepted up to now and have been pestering Edouard privately for some time to post information on them and open a discussion on the Tahawi tribe and Tahawi horses of Egypt.
    So glad to hear the news that they are now being formally proposed — also great news about *Lebnaniah.
    Good going, guys.
    Tzviah

  12. We can read a short history of the Tahawis from the pen of Elsie Streiff in the book of Dr. Klynstra,
    Nobility of the Desert.The settled Tahawi tribe is started the wandering about 300 years ago from Hejaz.
    “..the search for new pasture,moving through Libya and Tunisia and finally to Lower Egypt.”.. In Abbas Pasha’s time the Tahawi fled to Syria, and after the regent’s death they came back to the Sharkia province,Egypt.

    László

  13. When I asked Edouard what he knew about the status of Folla/Fulla, I certainly never expected all this! Thank you, Joe and Edouard, for submitting these mares.

    I look forward to hearing about the progress in getting them accepted.

  14. Just a note of caution, they have not been accepted yet! There is a long process that can take years! They were just submitted, and some people, myself included have a lot of clarifications to seek about these horses..

  15. Hi Edouard,

    I already send you the picture a while ago.

    Thanks, Monique

    PS I can submit the correct info to All Breed since I have Ghaniya’s pedigree here.

  16. I know it can take a long time to get accepted – if they are accepted in the end. But it is still more progress than I had hoped for since I didn’t realize that anyone else was interested in Folla/Fulla. I thought that when I had time (retirement in <10 years!) I would start researching the bloodline and start the process for possible acceptance etc etc etc

  17. Unfortunately, in Germany the line is hardly used. What I find a great pity ones……
    I will listen the Damline of Nefrotete:
    972 GHARNEFER by Gharib
    1973 SARNEFER by Sarwat
    1974 SHAMS EL NEFISA by Sarwat
    1975 SHAMS EL NASSIF by Farouk
    1977 NOUSA by Farouk
    1979 BINT NEFROTETE by Kaisoon
    1981 MOURAN by Madkour I
    1982 BINT NEFROTETE by Nizam
    1983 NEFOUSA by Melek
    1984 NEEMAT by Machmut
    1986 NOORA by Machmut
    1988 NANDU by Kar ibn ibn Galal
    1992 NETAYA by Taymour

  18. Is there more information and some photos of *Lebnaniah?

  19. there is. Click here
    http://daughterofthewind.org/strain-of-the-week-kuhaylan-al-dunays/

  20. Edouard, what information can you give me on the horses imported by Queen nazli in the early 1950’s? *Ibn Farhan and *Saema? They are in my horses’ pedigrees and can’t find much about them.

  21. Jay, indeed there is very little known about these two, but research is ongoing. The person most up-to-date on the research on the horses of Queen Nazli is certainly Joe Ferriss. Do you know him?

  22. Also, why aren’t they considered Al Khamsa but are considered Straight Egyptian?

  23. Simply because Al Khamsa and the Pyramid Society (creator and custodian of the Straight Egyptian label) are two different, unconnected organizations, with different criteria for admission of horses into their rosters..

    Most of the Egyptian horses accepted by Al Khamsa, except El Nasser, Beshier El Achkar and Badria who are relatively recent entrants, were grandfathered from the Blue Arabian Horse Catalog (yet another label), which is kind of the ‘ancestor’ of Al Khamsa. At the time the Blue Catalog was compiled, there was little information on the Tahawi horses. For a long time, many people in Al Khamsa, myself included, seem to have considered the Tahawi horses as slightly suspicious, mainly due to the lack of information about them. Recently, more, positive information surfaced, thanks to the minutious work of Bernd Radtke of Belgium who knew the Tahawi and their horses very well.

  24. Edouard, I spoke to Joe many many years ago and he didn’t have too much information about *Ibn Farhan and *Saema. I also asked Judith Forbis about them and she didn’t have anything either. As you said, perhaps more will come out as research develops. Thank you!

  25. Another lead: Saema is by Gamal El Din, right? He was a racehorse, and Marilyn Lang and Caryn Rogosky recently went to Egypt and scanned copies of the books where the races and the racehorses are listed. Perhaps you can find more when talking to them..

  26. Yes, Saema is by Gamal el Din. Also, in checking with the Egyptian stud books, there are no Arabians in Egypt with the blood of *Saema and *Ibn Farhan. I believe that *Ibn Farhan may have produced 3 offspring while in Egypt but that bloodline has been eliminated.

  27. In this vein, I always wondered why the sire of Ibn Farhan was registered as “Dahman” and not as “Farhan” as the name Ibn Farhan would seem to imply…

  28. Good question. I wonder if the name Farhan has anything to do with an ownership???

  29. maybe his sire’s name was Ferhan by a Seklavi out of a Dahmah um Amr.
    Sold from Turkey to Egypt for Races.

    He was a bay Stallion b. 1921

  30. Sorry no I want to wrote he was sold in 1924
    Born 1921 sold 1924

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