Titian CF, Hamdani Simri stallion in the USA

By Edouard Aldahdah

Posted on October 16th, 2012 in General

The other day, Jeannie Lieb pointed me to an excellent Davenport Hamdani stallion which I had not heard about before: Titian CF (Riposte x Neroli by Regency), a full blood brother to my and Darlene’s Monologue CF. Look at his long neck and his balanced conformation.

31 Responses to “Titian CF, Hamdani Simri stallion in the USA”

  1. This is a nice photo of one of our favorite “sons.”

  2. …who deserves to have more foals..

  3. Monologue CF and Titian CF were both products of the non-Tripoli program at Craver Farms, developed by combining the blood of the mare Bint Antan with Ibn Alamein and Dharanad, along with a touch of Kamil Ibn Salan through Orient (Kamil Ibn Salan x Bint Antan). (There could have been more Kamil Ibn Salan through his son out of Regency CF’s older full sister, but it was not to be.) The non-Tripoli horses tended to be muscular and well-balanced with nicely shaped and carried necks, as in the photo above. Although the non-Tripolis lacked the ethereal quality of, for example, many of the Bint Dharebah horses of Craver Farms production, the non-Tripolis had their own magnificence.

    Actually there was a second side to the non-Tripoli horses, because the same thing was done starting with the mare Tara through her daughter Taradiddle (by Ibn Alamein), who was bred to Dharanad and Regency CF. The Taradiddle line ran mostly to fillies, although there were at least two fine young sire prospects at the time Craver Farms dispersed, Flamboyant CF and Regalia CF.

    Is anyone continuing the non-Tripoli program?

  4. For an example of a Bint Dharebah mare, see the photo of Pirouette CF recently posted on this blog.

  5. Flamboyant CF and Regalia CF were exported to France. I don’t know if any suitable mares went with them.

  6. No. As far as I know, they are still entire and enjoying southern France.

  7. Maybe we should reach out to their owners and see if they would put them at stud for outside mares.. there are a few asils in France who would benefit from their blood.

  8. Thanks RJ, for that explanation of the non-Tripoli program. Having the list of names in the programs helps me sort them, rather than just thinking about them in a random, hand-waving sort of way.

  9. I, for one, have a non-Tripoli mare Fin DeSiecle CF and I intend to breed at least one, if not more, non-Tripoli foals. 🙂
    I am hoping things work out to breed Fin with Titian CF in 2013, which is how he came to Edouard’s attention.

  10. @Jeannie Lieb: If the resulting foal of a Fin to Titian breeding is a colt, you and I will DEFINITELY be pick up our “horse trading” discussion!

  11. RJ I enjoyed your summary of the non-Tripoli type and patterns. Do you think there is a distinctive look in this group because of the continuing recurrence of El Alamein and Salan more so than from Dharebah’s large family? Just curious because when I first started looking at Davenport horses in the 1970s I seemed to sense a particular look from Taradiddle and her family not apparent in most other lines. Also Tara herself must have a strong role here. One example is comparing Tara’s son Don Camillo by Monsoon with Dharebah’s daughter by Monsoon, Bint Dharebah. Don Camillo was certainly his mother’s son, with Monsoon having little to show for it. What do you think is the source of this particular look in the non-Tripoli group?

  12. I’ve loved Titian since the first time I saw him a few years ago (in pix, only). Tightly related to my stallion, Retorte CF, a “sorta” full brother to Monologue. Same sire and full sister dams. Retorte has a very different body type, I think.

  13. Joe, I think you can certainly see Tara and Antan in their non-Tripli descendants, but the overall look these horses have and their particular balanced conformation is I think the combination of Dharanad with Ibn Alamein (and El Alamein also through Bint Antan).

    If you take Titian CF as an example, he is 37% Ibn Alamein and 25% Dharanad. He gets another 16% El Alamein through Bint Antan. That is already 78% of his pedigree. In contrast, Antan is only 16%.

    Now, Pirouette CF is 27% Tripoli, 24% Dhalana, and 23% Dharebah. So 74% of her pedigree is horses that do not appear in any non-Tripoli pedigrees. (Of course Dharebah was full sister to Dharanah and Dhalana was full sister to Saranah, and Saranah and Dharanah are everywhere in non-Tripoli pedigrees, but there were marked differences between the full sisters, and they bred differently.)

    Remember also that both Tara and Antan were inbred to Antez, but Tripoli was one of the few Craver Farms foundation horses with no Antez blood. And in Titian CF’s case, Antez is further back, but makes up 32% of the pedigree. In Pirouette CF, Antez is 21%.

    Note: pedigree percentages are the expected contribution of each ancestor, not the actual contribution. So even though Pirouette CF is 27% Tripoli, you see a lot more of Dharebah in her than you do Tripoli.

  14. So RJ how would you explain the difference in looks between horses of similar pedigrees like Monologue and Titian? Are these the respective influences of Dharanad (in Titian) and Ibn Alamein (in Monologue)?

  15. Tersely (due to iPad keyboard) the key to your question is in RJ’s phrase “there were marked differences between the full sisters, and they bred differently.” Two full siblings are 50% related, not 100%. The phenotypic difference between Retorte and Monologue is a good example.

  16. Ambar, good point and important. We can cite a number of examples in Al Khamsa of full siblings being different from each other and produce types different than each other including the often cited two brothers: the powerful black Fa-Serr and the lean grey Fay El Dine (by Fadl x Bint Serra I). RJ makes an interesting point and makes this discussion noteworthy in looking at both individuals and pedigrees. Antez is at a higher level in the Non-Tripoli group and perhaps he is the “binder” that balances a blend of influence between Dharanad and Ibn Alamein who are significantly different from each other with the chestnut Dharanad having a bit longer frame with more sinewy look and the bay Ibn Alamein being more square and powerful like the Bahrain stallion Rabdan M65. Another reason for my posing the question above was to see if anyone thought that the mare Fasal also makes any difference, more than her son Salan in this non-Tripoli group and perhaps Jeanne can speak to that.

  17. There was a smoothness to the El Alamein foals, especially Ibn Alamein. He almost appeared to be like a water-worn stone, or driftwood.

    Personally, I always thought the difference was more Salan than his dam, Fasal, but that’s just the way I saw it.

    Dharanad had many wonderful qualities, but was not as balanced as Ibn Alamein. They made a wonderful cross with each other’s offspring.

    Add in the extra El Alamein influence through Bint Antan, especially through Regency, and that was the formula.

  18. Some of the non-Tripoli horses tend more toward Dharanad, others more toward Ibn Alamein. But also remember that when you create a whole family of horses mostly from three individuals who are already closely related (Bint Antan, Ibn Alamein, and Dharanad), the resulting inbreeding is going to turn up genetic variation, not create uniformity.

    The non-Tripoli group would have turned out differently with more Kamil Ibn Salan blood. Probably not better or worse, just different. As matters worked out, Kamil Ibn Salan is present through his daughter Orient, who had just one non-Tripoli foal, Cathay. And Cathay sired only two non-Tripoli foals, one of which was a filly whose new owner does not seem to have bred from her, and the other was Riposte CF, used as a sire to follow Regency CF. So the Kamil Ibn Salan influence in this group is now just through the one great-grandson.

    There were others that might have been, too. The Kehileh Krush mare June had two non-Tripoli sons by Dharanad, Heir Apparent and Au Contraire, neither of which sired a non-Tripoli foal. Another whole branch of the non-Tripoli family might have been developed had June’s filly by Ibn Alamein survived. Ditto Dharebah’s filly by Ibn Alamein. Taradiddle had a full brother named Country Boy who might have been used, and there was also Tiberius (El Alamein x Tara). And Dhalana’s breeding to El Alamein did not result in a foal, but that foal would have been a full blood sibling to Ibn Alamein.

  19. RJ I agree that both Kamal Ibn Salan and Heir Apparent not finding a larger opportunity in the Non-Tripoli’s is a game changer. Each of these two were clearly unique individuals, horses of their own. I also feel that Dharanad as an individual expressed more of the Hanad look than others but Jeanne’s comments seem to me to explain much of what I saw in these individuals. It is interesting to see how Dharanad and Ibn Alamein being so different from each other, stir in well together for a consistency, a kind of interaction that reminds me of how Fa-Serr and Fay El Dine worked together.

  20. And the El Alamein foal from Hawaii (Tripoli x Dharanah), RJ!

    We obviously needed a bigger farm and more money. : )

  21. Unfortunately, the smiley face after that comment was deleted by the software!

  22. When I get my hands on a time machine, I am going to be leading ghazus across time for DNA samples —

  23. I am trying to visualize that image before me…

  24. I have had several non Tripoli Davenports, at present only Revie. An older mare who has produced some very solid foals, one the pretties was by Monologue but did not survive. Revie just barley survived that time, and has never been bred back. Of course the non Tripoli horses are different, however, they are still within the Davenport look and hold much for the others if they can be continued. Monologue could be as important to the others as Tripoli was. Creating a whole new look. Be wonderful if someone was able to take him and others and create this different line? However like all
    thinks else, luck as to foals, and health, plays its final role as to success.

    As to the Krush without Tripoli, I personally never saw the point! And did not even try. Tybalt and June produced the finest stud colt as to then. Later Lente was born, he was without question the finest in my opinion. Sad as health took its toll, and ended a program only getting started. This time not of horses but of a key owner, my wife.

    My love for Monologue lives on in the Krush, a son. What a son! If he lives to breed on, he will play a strong role in creating
    a beauty not often seen in any group of horses. His side kick is also a Krush, completely different, yet a key to what is done here within this small group of Krush. Edouard be careful not to second guess yourself out of the original thinking. Any one who tries this non Tripoli, I wish good luck.

    Jackson/Bedouin Arabians

  25. I am trying to visualize that image before me…

    Don’t worry, you’re invited. I don’t know when we’re leaving, but we’ll be back by teatime.

  26. maybe I will stay behind… sometime in Aug-Sept 1906…

  27. I would like to make the trip (there, and to the Blunt’s trips, and to….), but I don’t think I would like to stay! I’m not tough enough!

  28. I would like to go back to see Rodania, a real bedouin bred and used mare with the battle scars to prove it.
    best wishes
    Bruce Peek

  29. I agree Bruce. Likewise for Homer Davenport’s imports like Wadduda, a true battle scarred war mare. And also there is the incredible Davenport imported mare Abeyah who proved to Davenport’s traveling associate Arthur Moore that Bedouin bred Arabians were incredible equines. Moore was a skeptic about the merits of Arabians.

    In his book My Quest of the Arabian Horse, Homer Davenport best describes the ride that changed Arthur Moore’s mind:
    “…he was riding the Abeyah mare and determined to put her to the test. It was a foolish thing to do, for the heat was terrific and the mare had a bad cough and cold. Moore, with his rifle, ammunition and $4000 in gold, weighed 300 pounds. Nevertheless he galloped her thirty-five miles in four hours and a half, carrying all that weight. The further she went the stronger she seemed to get, and the better she seemed to move. Moore wanted the Arab to show him something, and he got it without getting it second-hand. From that time on he stood up for the Arab horse.”

    Even more incredible, *Abeyah was in rather poor condition because she was still occasionally nursing her filly *Haffia as well as being pregnant again! She even later beat Akhmet Haffez’s swift Hamdaniyah Simriyah mare in a half-mile race! Now that is a true desert bred Arabian mare!

  30. Absolutely right Joe! Its’ been suggested on this forum before that Asil breeders need to have an athletic pursuit they can use to breed horses toward, and that they can use to showcase Asils’ special talents. So how about a combined training test of dressage, cross country with jumps, water to cross, ditches and slides, followed by stadium jumping, and finally a distance race of say 50 miles?
    To be open only to Al Khamsa- Asil horses. Such a test would sidestep the problem of breeding toward disfunnctional halter phenotype and insead reward horselike conformation and the ability to work in true collection. It would also test psychological willingness of the horse and physical ability to recover from stringent athletic work and continue on.
    Best wishes
    Bruce Peek

  31. WOW, Bruce, Bravo!

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