Wanted: blogger on South American lines
By Edouard Aldahdah
Posted on September 28th, 2009 in General
Something tells me that there may a number of asil lines down in South America. A non-negligible number of Arabians of Crabbet, Babolna, and French bloodlines were exported to this part of the world, which to me is terra incognita. There were aslo some direct importations from the desert, such as that of Don Hernan Ayerza. All these horse must have left something.
In the USA, the best known South American asil mare is the Saqlawiyah Jadraniyah mare *Aire (by Ali x Raira by the Crabbet-bred Rustnar) was bred in Brazil, from Ayerza bloodlines and was imported to to the USA in the 1934 by General Dickinson of Travelers Rest Farms. She still has asil descendents in the USA (and nice ones, too) and her tail female, although endangered, is still extant. Jill Erisman wrote a nice article summarizing the status of line within Al Khamsa, in the last Khamsat.
Aire (Ali x Raira) a Saqlawiyah Jadraniyah of Argentinian bloodlines imported to the USA in 1934
Let me cut to the chase. If anyone knows someone, or knows someone who knows someone who can and wants to write and research asil Arabian in South America, then please let me know. He or she would be invited to contribute to this blog. Language is not a problem, I will find someone to translate from Spanish and/or Portugese.
September 28th, 2009 1:29 pm
“All these horse must have left something.”
Edouard, I wonder if you are underestimating the influence of Hamdani Semri I-9, O’Bajan V-6, Kurdo III, and O’Bajan-7 in South American pedigrees?
September 28th, 2009 1:47 pm
I may be.. should I not even bother?
September 28th, 2009 3:24 pm
For example in Brasil live 6 million horses.From them there are 59000 arabians ,but “only ” 28000 purebreds-
show in the statistics.
We need somebody,who live there,or somewhere in South America.
September 29th, 2009 6:40 pm
Hi Edouard,
There was a doctor from Uruguay who visited my farm in Ohio, USA, in 1989. His name was Usandavarus (sp?), he was a lovely man with some knowledge of the Ayyerza horses. His English was pretty good but I did not maintain any contact with him. I also have a good friend in Montevideo there, not a horse person, but someone who might be able to locate him for you.
September 29th, 2009 7:58 pm
You are right, Pam. He was a fine person, and had done some writing on the Ayerza topic. His name is Dr, Eduardo Usandivara; he wrote a book called Caballos Arabes de Argentina, published in 1989 in Buenos Aires. He gave a copy to Charles, and I have it here in front of me. It is set up like Al Khamsa Arabians (1983), index format. A person of that name is an agricultural consultant in Argentina, but I don’t know if it is the same person. Perhaps Edouard can locate him through this much information.
September 29th, 2009 7:59 pm
http://www.way-books.co.uk/books/detail/4428.htm
This is his book.
September 29th, 2009 9:36 pm
Wow, thanks for this suggestion Pam and Jeanne. Do you know whether this gentleman has an interest in asil bloodlines/is aware of them?
September 29th, 2009 9:58 pm
I think so, but would not swear to it. He did come to the US to attend the Al Khamsa convention in 1989 in Ohio. That was a meeting where Charles went and I stayed home with the animals, so I did not get to meet him.
September 29th, 2009 10:42 pm
This is hopeful. We may have located a real treasure trove of information if we can find him.
Wouldn’t it be amazing to find that Laszlo is correct and that there is still old asil blood from Babolna crossed with additional lines?
September 30th, 2009 6:33 pm
Could someone list for me the old asil Babolna horses exported to South America? Then I will check what descent breeds down from them. The only such Babolna horse of which I am aware is Hadban I-4, but all of her descendants were crossed with 30 Maria or Shagya blood within only a few generations.
September 30th, 2009 6:59 pm
I must appeal for help. I have combed DataSource reviewing the lists of horses imported and entered in the stud books of Argentina, Brazil, Bolivia, Uraguay, Paraguay, Venezuela, Chile, Ecuador, and Colombia (apparently Peru has no stud book of its own?), starting from the mid-1800s and going through 1960. The only asil Babolna horse I can find is still Hadban I-4.
What are the names of the old asil horses from Babolna, and which South American countries imported them? I honestly can’t find more than one and, as I said, all of her descendants were crossed with 30 Maria and Shagya blood within a few generations.
October 1st, 2009 12:53 am
I decided to go about this systematically, running the complete asil descent from each of the imported Ayerza foundation mares. I have already done Nadima, Hadban I-4, and Kariban. As far as I can tell, there are no living asil descendants from any of them, except that Kariban has the line through *Aire, pictured above. Next (maybe tomorrow) I will look at the line from Hayde.
October 1st, 2009 9:46 am
That is noble, RJ. I don’t think you’ll find anything either, but we can always hope.
October 1st, 2009 11:01 am
What about old Ayerza + Babolna bloodlines in connection with old French bloodlines? e.g., Zaale’s tail female through Abyla (Asfar x Tempia)?
October 1st, 2009 11:23 am
Edouard, when I run the descent from the imported Ayerza foundation mares, I am assuming every French import to South America to be asil, without even checking the pedigree. In my studies so far, it has made no difference. French blood or no French blood, everything gets crossed with 30 Maria, Shagya, Skowronek, or Shahzada by the mid-20th century.
And forget about any combination with Babolna bloodlines — unless someone knows differently, I believe the only asil horse of old Babolna lines in South America was Hadban I-4, and there is nothing asil left from her.
October 1st, 2009 11:28 am
Ouch, that’s painful to hear. I will try running the French tail females, while you run the Ayerza ones. Maybe I will get lucky.
Laszlo, what makes you think 74-Tifle might have left something in South America?
October 3rd, 2009 2:56 am
Dear Edouard,
74 Tifle had 3 daughters in Bábolna.From them 2 sold as a broodmare (8 Gidran – by Siglavy Gidran or.ar. as 10 years old,47 Durzy – by Durzy or.ar. as a 20 years old.)
And Bábolna stud exported many-many granddaughters,grand-grand daughters… until the last World War.
All of these exported Hamdaniyat horses was asil in my opinion.And all of these mares left more or less progenies.I must say,it is just an intuition ,but I would like to do everything to see distinctly.
Please,read once again our correspondence in july under the title ” Rare pictures of 25 Amurath Sahib”
I didn’t say I have concrete informations.I have asked a help through Your Blog. Yes,this thing with 74 Tiffle is nearly hopeless,but somewhere,maybe not in South America lives a mare..a daughter of the wind,
In spite of this fact,South America can be important for us.
László
October 3rd, 2009 3:09 pm
It took several days, but I have run through all the Hayde descendants. When I run these lines, I do not look just at the horses that are tail-female to Hayde — I look at all descendants. Just as with Kariban, the only asil descent from Hayde that I can find is through *Aire.
Next I will look at the asil descent from Maanaqui and the later desert mares, Diya, Sedi, and Richa, in case something survived from them in asil form. But for this to be so, those horses would have to have been bred apart from the Kariban and Hayde descendants, which seems unlikely.
October 3rd, 2009 3:29 pm
There is another early imported Ayerza desert mare, often overlooked, named Gelue. Now I see why. She has no living descendants at all.
October 3rd, 2009 3:50 pm
Before moving on to Maanaqui, I looked quickly at the four Blunt mares imported to and registered in South America. Nadima (Daoud x Nefisa), founded a major line, but as I discussed above, no asil descent. Atwa (Feysul x Abla) has no progeny registered in South America. The line from Hafida (Berk x Hamasa) bred for a few generations but has since died out completely. Betina (Rijm x Bereyda) had a line with asil progeny for four generations, but no further. She may have non-asil living descendants, but I didn’t run the non-asil lines far enough to check.
Conclusion: no living asil descendants from any of the four Blunt mares sold to and registered in South America.
October 3rd, 2009 6:28 pm
This is looking more and more depressing…
October 3rd, 2009 7:36 pm
One surprise is the many asil Crabbet horses that the British stud books and Crabbet records say were exported to South America but which do not seem to have been registered in any South American stud books. These include the Crabbet stallions Alsoran, Fantass, Rafeef(!), Nahas, Ragheb, Rihan, Nar, Rakim, Afrit, Rayyan, and Indian Fire, and the Crabbet mares Fakira, Filfil, Ribaba, Bussora, Jask, and Silwa.
Perhaps, if Babolna sold asil horses in addition to Hadban I-4 to South America prior to World War II, those horses were never registered in South America either?
October 4th, 2009 9:27 am
Would South America include Mexico or Panama, which may have been a destination for some of these horses?
October 4th, 2009 1:56 pm
Mexico and Panama are not in South America.
Nonetheless, I decided to use DataSource to pull up all Babolna horses exported and registered in all stud books of the world in DataSource. This search pulled up Babolna horses registered as imports in stud books from Argentina, Poland, Weil (Wurttemberg), the U.S.A., Germany, Denmark, Sweden, and Uraguay.
The group in Uraguay, c.1913, was new to me. They do not have Babolna names: Baroud, El Thaga II, Gazele II, Mahaba, Mata Hari, Mimosa II, Pharia, Zora III, and Siglavy. (OK, Siglavy could be a Babolna name.) They do not have listed sires or dams, but they do have complete foaling dates instead of just a year. All of their lines either die out or get crossed with the usual South American bloodlines, e.g. Hamdani Semri I-9, O’Bajan V-6, etc.
Now, I’m not saying DataSource is infallible. It does not run the Polish pedigrees back further than about the 1890s, for example. But it does seem to have the complete record of breeding in Argentina starting with Hernan Ayerza’s first imports, and following the progeny of those horses exported to Brazil, Uraguay, etc.
October 4th, 2009 2:03 pm
Odd thing about the group in Uraguay — although they are pulled up in a search for imports from Babolna, DataSource assigns their parents to the “desert bred” category in the Dam # and Sire # fields. That’s why I didn’t find them in my search on South American imports with parents given Babolna numbers.
October 4th, 2009 2:28 pm
Finished another line. No asil descent from Maanaqui and her daughter Mekka, except through *Aire.
October 12th, 2009 9:11 pm
Just now getting back to this. Nothing asil left from Sedi. Will look next at Richa and Diya.
October 13th, 2009 3:06 pm
Nothing asil left from Richa or Diya. I did turn up another asil English (not bred at Crabbet) mare imported to Brazil, named Nusi. She’s a Sainfoin daughter out of an *Aldebar daughter out of Arusa (Rustem x Abla), giving a relatively high concentration of lines to Queen of Sheba through all three of *Astraled, Ahmar, and Asfura. Nothing asil left from Nusi.
So I found nothing asil remaining from any of the Ayerza desert, Crabbet and other English, or Babolna mares imported to South America. I will leave it to Edouard or someone else to explore the progeny of the French mares that bred in South America.
October 13th, 2009 3:11 pm
Many thanks for taking the time to do this RJ, if only to confirm your earlier suspicion. At least now we now for sure. I will move on the French lines..
October 13th, 2009 4:17 pm
I’m sorrow,but thank You R.J.
László