A plea
Today, preservation breeders of asil Arabians in the USA breed on a small scale. They are fewer breeders than before and they are far between. Many of these breeders don’t always have the stallions their mares need, whether in their barns of just around the corner. Some breeders have the stallions but not the mares. Some have stallions who are sons and brothers of their mares, and don’t want to inbreed.
There needs to be a good supply of (non-Egyptian) Al Khamsa stallions registered to ship semen from. When I wanted to breed Jadiba to a Davenport stallion this past summer, the only ones I could find who were ready to ship were Triermain CF in Illinois, Vice Regent CF in Georgia, and Pal-Ara Sensation and Mandarin in Oregon. Mandarin died last year, and Triermain is getting old. I opted for Vice Regent but now I have more mares and I wish there are other stallions to choose from.
There is no shortage of outstanding Davenport and BLUE STAR and other asil stallions, who ought to be registered to ship. I wish Davenport stallions like Regatta CF, Daedalus LD, Porte CF, Silverton CF, Indie Star, Eldar HD, Shiraz CF, Clarion CF, Firebolt, Chancery CF, Popinjay, Bah-Rani, Pulcher Ibn Reshan, Cobalt KH, Quantum LD, Aurene CF, were available to ship semen from. These and others are the sires of the future.
I realize registration for shipping is expensive, but there must be way to recoup the costs, and perhaps a collective effort can be undertaken, will several breeders cooperating to pool funding and get stallions of common interest frozen or registered to ship. It is well worth the effort, and there is no other way forward for the future of the asil Arabian in the USA.
Sadly, you’ve hit the nail on the head. Hopefully by group effort we can get some of this done before we run out of time. I will contact you directly if I find myself in a position to give practical help. Insha’Allah!
I agree and I would be willing to help financially within my means to see more stallions registered to ship.
I agree, often breedings are done simply because a foal is desired and no other stallion is convenient, and so a mare gets bred to a stallion that is less than an optimal choice. The bloodline suffers as a result. One of the advantages of breeding at Craver Farms was the size of the stallion battery allowed for many options which could be weighed when planning matings.
However, there is a lot more to this than simply buying the semen transport permit. The logistics and expense of collecting and shipping (or freezing) can be considerable.
None of my business really but I would think that it is absolutely the way forward,(( to freeze as many as possible too,particularly older stallions ( those who will freeze) particularly to export standards )).
You make a very good point RJ,the same applied to Crabbet etc, few people can afford such enterprises now but it seems to me that there are quite a few small but dedicated breeders, there must be as free a flow of genetic material as is possible.
I spend part of my working life breeding mares to frozen semen,it really isn’t THAT expensive if you consider what is at stake in this instance particularly and success rates are very, very good now.
Interesting. I just got off the phone with my brother, he and my sister-in-law run a Quarter Horse operation on a much larger scale than any of us could contemplate, and this subject as well as that of stallion approval/licensing came up. His observation is that the use of frozen semen has greatly decreased in that breed, as the novelty has worn off, and the expense and limitations of the technique have become evident.
Shipped chilled semen has been useful for us in the past, although I’m not set up to do it presently. I really think breeders need to keep the two concepts (chilled and frozen) separate, though.
Michael,you are right chilled and frozen are two different undertakings.
There was a period when every Tom, Dick and Harry was freezing semen and the quality was variable and often poor with consequent disappointment for mare owners and vets alike, this led to a loss of faith in the technique. The situation now is very different here at least, standards of collection and freezing are very much higher and more uniform as centres of excellence have been established and techniques improved and standardised.
We, and many other clinics now get conception rates with frozen semen on a par with those for natural covering/chilled semen. Indeed there is an argument in older mares with long and variable follicular phases that a single post ovulation insemination with frozen semen may be the best approach to get her in foal at all.
It is not cheap, there are mares that respond badly to frozen semen and stallions that won’t freeze but good quality semen and dilligent veterinary intervention will yeild excellent conception rates.
We are certainly inseminating many more mares with frozen semen year on year and getting excellent results, even in older maidens and other less than ideal candidates. I am not suggesting that frozen semen should be used for the sake of it…it is expensive and involves significant veterinary input (and significant sleep deficit for me on a personal note!!!) BUT it has the huge advantage that stallions can be used extensively, internationally and even after they have died,in terms of Asil breeding, little as I know, they would seem to be huge advantages…
Chilled semen is relatively cheap and easy and I would have thought extremely useful in a country the size of America. Although,interestingly we actually had even better results last year with frozen than chilled due to some truly awful batches of chilled semen coming in from the continent, collected and packed by owners whereas all the frozen semen we used was really top quality collected and frozen at first class facilities.
We had mares in foal to stallions who at the time of covering were in America, Germany, Italy,Belgium and Saudi Arabia for example… that concept has to be of sigificant interest to Asil breeders, even more so that the reproductive capacity of a stallion can be preserved even after his death.
Porte CF is set up to ship (just for the record).
Adding — I am fortunate to be within a 45-minute trailer ride of one of the best equine repro labs on the west coast. RJ is right that the expense is considerable, but I’m still very grateful to have managed to both freeze semen on Palisades CF, and prove said frozen (with the birth of ADA Skylarking).
l’insémination artificielle en congelé est à mon avis très utile pour le sauvetage d’une race,d’une espèce quand les reproducteurs éventuels sont très éloignés les uns des autres mais ne doit pas etre un mode de reproduction habituelle et remplaçant la reproduction naturelle.Il serait également intéressant pour garder une plus grande variété génétique pour des petites populations d’associer des échanges de jeunes mâles prometteurs entre éleveurs.
Aux usa,il est habituel de se déplacer en avion,les jeunes étalons pressentis pourraient e^tre visités dans leur environnement habituel et quand les éleveurs se sont mis d’accord,les échanges physiques pourraient se faire à mi chemin par van donc moins chers.
J’utilise la monte naturelle en liberté ou en main et également l’insémination en congelé.Dans ce dernier cas,si le taux est aux environs de 40% à la décongélation,cela devient difficile d’avoir une jument gestante à moins peut e^tre d’avoir un vétérinaire inséminateur disponible m^eme la nuit pour faire une insémination en zone profonde à l’ovulation qui est assez invasive et dure à supporter pour la jument.mes deux juments avaient pris du premier coup à l’insémination artificielle normale en congelé la première fois puis j’ai réessayé par la suite deux années de suite sur plusieurs chaleurs sans résultat (taux de 40% à la décongélation ce qui est moyen mais pas mauvais) avec une des deux juments qui n’avait jamais eu de problème ni en liberté,ni en main ni la première fois en congelé.la prochaine fois ce sera en naturel pour toutes les deux.
Pour améliorer la variabilité génétique d’une population,il est peut e^tre intéressant de réfléchir sur des importations si il y a danger de trop grande consanguinité.
L’insémination artificielle en congelé peut etre très utile pour du sauvetage mais pour moi,l’insémination artificielle systématique en élevage du cheval et en plus si le cheval en question est asil (avec mon expérience plus intelligent que les autres) fait descendre l’élevage de ce noble animal au rang d’élevage industriel de bovins ou autres animaux de rapport).je trouve que cela est bien dommage qu’on leur refuse une vie naturelle la plus équilibrée possible.
Fabienne raises a good point about the exchange of young prospective sires, which to my mind (producing young prospects, that is) is more important than preserving frozen semen from the old horses. One thing that was drilled into me by one of my early mentors is “you can’t do the same thing over and over,” by which she meant that you need to move on in a breeding program. This sounds a lot to me like Charles Craver’s “the horses will show you where they want to go.”
I also would put more emphasis on something that Lisa mentions in passing: not all stallions freeze successfully. It would be unfortunate if freezing ability became an inadvertent basis for selection, and I have actually heard a breeding station manager comment that she hated Sire X, but had to admit he provided a good frozen sample, so she could see why people were using him.
I understand your sentiments Fabienne, I love and respect horses and hate to think of myself as ‘demeaning’ them by using AI, we are very gentle and careful and have found that mares quickly become relaxed and calm about the whole thing, we always feed them when they are in the stocks and after a few times they will march in of their own accord, completely at ease, indeed we would not proceed with a mare unless and until she was relaxed and happy. I have never found that a mare,by that stage obviously well used to being scanned has any problem at all with deep iu inseminstion.
It must also be borne in mind that natural breeding can result in the most horrific and life threatening injuries. I am really certain Fabienne,that you youself manage in hand covering in an excellent manner, as it should be, but sadly on some studs it can often be little more than the rape of an unprepared, terrified, twitched filly/mare.
That said I would hate it if I would seem to be an advocate of ‘industrial’ breeding (!), I am not!
I agree with you, AI is not necessary in many cases and is not suitable for some mares at all but the fact remains that it allows a mare owner to cover a mare with a stallion of great merit who may be the other side of the world/dead, as opposed to what may be a mediocre stallion who happens to live down the road. Using these techniques we have enabled the breeding of many lovely foals whose conception would be otherwise impossible.
In the case of the Asil horse how very many times has Edouard bemoaned that there are one or two horses remaining of a certain line,or that a line has been lost forever? I would have thought that all available tools should be deployed to save the blood of these horses.
ps Despite the fact that I am a vet who uses modern breeding technology (!), I could not agree with you more about the importance of horses living a natural life, for example mine live in a stable family group on 20 acres with free access to shelter etc However I would still prefer to AI them at home rather than send them away to stud on the (very, very rare) occasion that I breed my own horses.
As an aside there are stories of some reproductive manipulations that the Bedouin themselves ‘invented’ I would love to know the truth of these!!
Michael,I agree god forbid that the ability to freeze EVER becomes a concious selection criteria for a stallion,quite ridiculous. Although obviously there is the inevitable and unsought consequence that a stallion who does not freeze can never be used outside his country of residence.
re ‘young prospective sires’ Fabienne makes a good point, but those of us who rate proven performance under saddle as a prerequisite to breeding from a horse, he may well be that bit older/ only available by AI due to ‘work committments’!
For example by the time a top endurance stallion has also proved to be a good SIRE of endurance horses (ie very desirable as a Arab sire to the likes of me!) he will not be in the first flush of youth.
As another example the last pure Courthouse stallion recently died but was available even when he was a very old horse, and I believe still is, by frozen,it is a sort of insurance against the tide of fashion washing away certain bloodlines,which can be a source of regret as we have seen exemplified on here many times.
Again I am not,contrary to appearances perhaps 🙂 ! unreservedly advocating frozen but it has a role to play.
Our feeling about AI is that you know what you got from the stallion, you know it went past the cervix on the mare. It gives you a couple of points on your side.
We have had no experience with frozen, although we have often wished we could have. But it is true that you have to use your young stallions to find out where your next sires, and the next trail, is coming from!
j’ai dit que l’insémination artificielle était très utile sur des petites populations éloignées géographiquement et peut permettre la survie et il va s’en dire qu’un éleveur sérieux ne va pas emmener sa jument chez l’étalon du voisin parce que que le reproducteur en question est de l’autre c^oté de la rue.
J’ai ajouté qu’il fallait également élargir le pool des reproducteurs en pensant au futur.
aujourd’hui en france,dans la race arabe non asil et dans chaque discipline,on a le me^me phénomène,en show,on retrouve plus ou moins 3 reproducteurs de base,en course plate,on retrouve presque uniquement st laurent et ses fils (principalement manganate puis 2 ou 3 autres et petits fils (dormane,djelfor) et maintenant arrière petits fils tous consanguins sans compter les juments et tout ce monde avec une descendance pléthorique.il en est de m^eme en endurance.les males sont souvent de lignée course avec des filles de persik car c’est vendeur m^eme si les résultats sur 130 ou 160 KM sont décevants pour la masse de chevaux impliqués dans ces types de croisement.
Bien sur,un étalon ne peut pas faire carriere en endurance ou autre si il y a beaucoup de juments devant sa porte mais je connais des étalons ayant quelques poulains chaque année en naturel faisant une belle épreuve avant le mois de mai et reprenant l’entrainement pour e^tre pre^t à courir une autre épreuve en septembre ou octobre suivant les opportunités.
J’essaierai encore avec du congelé mais pas avec les m^emes juments ni avec le m^eme étalon mais l’insémination artificielle est loin d’^etre systématique chez moi.
Il est vrai qu’il n’y a pas de problèmes de comportement des étalons (très mauvais caractère ou cheval malheureux rendu asocial?)et les juments n’ont pas peur,ce sont elles qui font la loi.Jean claude rajot pourrait également vous en parler.Mes 2 étalons passent l’hiver ensemble et sont père de famille et un étalon de 5 ans fait le chef de famille de 3 jeunes de 4,3 ET 2 ans tous entiers et il n’y a pas de casse mais ils ont toujours été habitués comme cela.ayant 7 Males de 2 ans et plus à la maison,ils sont gérés en parc suivant leur caractère et leurs affinités,seul aftan m^ale de 8 ans,pour des raisons logistiques est seul exceptionnellement dans son parc et abri sans que cela nuise à son comportement,ce qui ne serait pas le cas de certains autres.
Fabienne,
I personally too know many mannerly stallions who live happily with other horses, including other entire males, I also know many who will cover mares throughout the competition season without any problems, I love working with and riding stallions, some the my favourite horses in my life have been stallions,I am not trying to suggest that they should be removed from the breeding process! Really Fabienne, I am in agreement with your points, I just think, as you yourself said there are advantages as well as disadvantages to frozen.
As for breeding injuries, there are of course stallions have never learnt manners (which are best taught by a mare at liberty when he is a colt), but I have also seen many breeding injuries over the years where perfectly mannerly stallions have accidentally torn a mare internally,particularly when covering in hand and particularly if the mare is twitched, often this heals well but when the abdomen is contaminated a life threatening peritonitis ensues.
There are obviously risks as well to rectal examination and scanning(the fear of which is constantly in my mind).
It all depends on so many factors, geography,bloodlines,stallion availablity,workload, temperament,mare breeding history etc etc etc it is becoming pointless to discuss individual cases we could go on forever! 🙂
Lisa; were the Courthouse horses Asil? Recall a reference some years back that the Courthouse horses were crabbet without Skowronek? If so would that then make them essentially asil, cuz I think that Skowronek was thee only horses used at crabbet that didn’t go back to verifiable desert sources.
Best wishes
bruce Peek
I think what you need to do is share stallions by leasing. We have the same issues with Crabbets. A decreasing gene-pool and horses not being used wisely because of the tyranny of distance. It is VERY frustrating. I have found great resistance amongst breeders towards AI because of the costs which seem slightly astronomical. This is why I think ‘sharing’ or leasing stallions to breeders on ‘the other side’ is a really good option.
Some Courthouse horses traced to Skowronek through Champurrado and Fasiha. Some Courthouse horses had no Skowronek blood. By the end of Bill Clark’s life, I think all but one or two of the horses he had at Courthouse traced to Skowronek blood. And don’t forget that Bill Clark owned and used Skowronek himself before Lady Wentworth bought him.
As for horses used at Crabbet, don’t forget the Crabbet sires Jeruan and Dargee.
Hi Bruce ,
Yes it is as RJ says,however outside the Asil group they are still highly regarded that is what I meant,not that they were Asil,I think Sappho was one of the last Asil Courthouse mares who we have recently bred closely to but my horses are just (!!!!!)purebred.
Sorry
Lisa
I have mentioned it before, just breeding to preserve is a dead end unless they can compete with other Arabians in versatility, type & size. They don’t have to look like the current world champion, they don’t need to be 16 hands but nobody (with exception of a handful preservation breeders)is interested in 14hands Arab ponies that are sometimes difficult to recognize as Arabians. No market, no future. It’s as simple as that.
Unless you have your own stallion station and unless you’re breeding a lot of mares, freezing is probably cheaper than AI – at least here in Europe it is. You only do the effort once and there-after just ship whatever is needed. Driving your stallion in the season each time to a stallion station doesn’t only cost in transport but is a real nuissance (or have an able vet that can ship fresh season come running to your place is same nuissance). On top of that, here in Europe, your stallion needs to remain in quarantine at the station in order to ship around in the EU or beyond.
Problem with frozen semen is that it is not always easy for older mares, which is often the case with preservation breeders. But chilled semen is not always that easy on them eather – getting older mares in foal usually works best with young, potent stallions.
Since preservation breeders usually fall outside the mainstream market to recover even partially serious expenses, it makes much more sense to exchange stallions. If you have a 2 or 3 mares to breed, see to it that you have perhaps a few more mares that you can breed in the area and bring over the stallion. Much easier for the stallion owner and natural breeding is always the best chance to get mares in foal. Next year you pick out another stallion. You need of course to be able to trust the capable hands and facilities of the mare owner you are lending your stallion out.
dear Patrick: ” You need of course to be able to trust the capable hands and facilities of the mare owner you are lending your stallion out.” And make sure they have a big insurance policy too. Not just a wimpy little homeowners hobby farm policy but a real breeders policy, so that when they are kicked in the scrotum and the choice becomes a thirty thousand dollar surgery or put him down everyone is covered. Or coversely when a visiting mare gets a rectal perforation her owners will be compensated.
The thing is i can think offhand of several stallions out there who would greatly improve the run of the mill waho arab mare. They would probably also help in the disposition too- being that they would essentially be an outcross. From Nimr, to Edie Booths horses, to again the several davenport stallions, to Soo Shahloul( used to be owned by the late Hugh Fleming i think)and of course those canadian Saudi breeders- there’s lots of stallions to choose from.
Patrick iirc wasn’t there at one time a lot of co-operator breeding circles? I think Jeanne would have more info..
Best wishes
Bruce Peek
ps- sorry should have also mentioned the Tahawi horses too
Hi Edouard
Personic LF has been available AI for many years. Maggie’s e-mail is bearfootmaggie @ hotmail.com
Bruce,
I wouldn’t know if what stallions they have today could be an attraction for pure bred mare owners whatsoever as you seem to be convinced of (making me curious however, do you have any pictures to share?).
Assuming that preservation breeders have to breed more horses than they need in order to continue with the best, it means that marketing your surplus horses.
With exception of the straight Egyptian bloodlines (like Soo Shahloul I believe), there is no real market for asil Arabians outside the endurance world and cheap trail horses (and endurance horses sell only for good money when you have the time to keep young horses and train them up to a certain competition level)
First thing the asil breeders need to understand is that only they think asil Arabians are superior than pure bred Arabians because of their asil pedigree. The majority of the Arabian horse breeders think asils are inferior than today’s pure breds and they are absolutely right in most cases! It’s easy to stand on the side-line shouting to the arena they’re only competing with partbreds – throw in your asils and be heard.
I doubt it that the average WAHO mare owner would be interested at all in horses like Nimr or the Booth stallions AT ALL.
I have however seen on this forum plenty of asil Arabians that easily can compete in type with pure bred Arabians – they don’t need to have the potential to be the next world champion but they can to be recognisable in a second as an Arabian. If asil breeders would more support the handful of truly good stallions instead of their own inbred mongrels like many of them do, it would help creating a stallion market and perhaps some day motivate a stallion owner to go looking for a special stallion abroad.
There were plenty of original Arabians near perfection but rarely any stud consisted of solely individuals near perfection so horse breeding is not about ‘preserving’ but always about ‘improving’ to come close to an ideal. Even breeders that were able to start with a prime collection like Gleanloch, Babson or Pritzlaff couldn’t just breed & preserve – even when you use 2 individuals near perfection there is no guarantee that the product is near perfection.
Why do you think Saud gifted so many horses to oil people? Saud was probably one of the first preservationist breeders of the asil Arabian and as he had confiscated the war mares of his tribesmen, he could hardly give away his surplus stock back to the tribes? So he gave them to people like Sam Roach. (Compare them to the pictures of horses Saud gifted in the same era to royalty – ouch! Give those to me any time!)
There are many Davenports I really like, both in conformation as in type. Unfortunately Edouard told me they are very small (which is less a problem in the USA than it would be in Europe but still)
Here in Europe the solid pedigree base of most non-imported pure-breds consists of the Crabbets, in America most of the pedigree base of the better pure bred Arabians are (besides the Crabbets) the Davenports and not always that far up.
I think there lies a possibility for the asil breeders to create a market at good prices. Here in Europe at least high-percentage crabbet mares that are not too bad looking always make reasonable prices because breeders know they are a fantastic base to breed with.
Focus on the versatility of asil Arabians in performance and close up asil ancestors like the Davenports in modern show horses as a solid mare base would be a good place to start marketing asil Arabians.
There is no need for a super flashy website but a website as antique as the name of your stud full of dead links is not going to help your cause of course.
I haven’t been to the Al-Khamsa website in a while but if I recall it well, they’re just like the asil club – putting their inside stuff on the foreground and utterly unaware that the general public doesn’t care at all if they ride an asil Arabian or a pure bred Arabian. There are plenty of spectacular shots of asil Arabians, from headshots to climbing cougar rock – how come not even a single one is on the homepage of Al-Khamsa or Asil Club to get the focus of the average Arabian enthusiastic?
Sad, really sad!
Back to exchanging stallions …
I assume preservationist breeders are even a smaller community in the Arab world so they know each other quite well, they’re all on amateur level, many more stallions than they can breed and all stuck into inbreeding. Exchanging stallions will do miracles and is a very cheap solution. It’s a whole lot easier bringing a stallion to a group of mares than the other way around. For the stallion owner it is also interesting, with an interesting package deal, his stallion will be able to breed more mares than he normally would (with us amateur breeders, stud fees are more about the work around hassling around with your stallion and the keep of visiting mares than making any money out of it)
I could be wrong, but with exception of a few endurance cracks or endurance crack sires, I doubt it that there are many (non-straight Egyptian) asil stallions worth $30.000.
So again, get of your high asil horse – unless they’re endurance cracks or serious prospects their value is usually around low grade riding horses.
I could be wrong but the value of the stallions Edouard mentioned will probably be no higher than $10.000 or $15.000 (probably I’m already over estimating) – so we’re talking about an insurance cost of $500 for young stallions up to $1500 for older stallion …
If you choose AI to avoid breeding accidents that’s of course a whole other discussion. Than there is in fact no discussion at all, stop complaining and pay the cost to stand your stallion through AI
(I meant today’s Tahawi stallions in my first paragrahp that you seemed to be refering to)
It’s very enlightening to hear your views, Patrick, and some of your suggestions are quite good.
I hope you’re not a diplomat in your “day job!”
Meant to put a -grin- after the last sentence, but the site stripped it…
Well I have to be quite diplomatic in my ‘day job’, reason why I like to spit out my thoughts outside my ‘day job’
I meanwhile stumbled over a picture of AAS Enan, stallion bred by Antique stud and exported to SA – perhaps they’re really the most horrible photographers & webdesigners at Antique stud but he was already a much better looking horse than what they seem to have. Enough to look at pictures of their foundation stock, Rudann seems to be have been a very nice individual, the foundation mares however don’t look that impressive.
I meant what I said, there are still plenty of stunning asil stallions in America that can stand their man in type against pure breds (following Sam Roaches’Taamri I just came over a picture of his grandson DB Rulique), so I really don’t get it why most asil breeders seem to keep inbreeding on their narrow foundation which is obviously not helping to improve their breeding stock.
If you don’t breed the good ones, there is obviously no reason to invest in stallions (by investing I don’t even mean buying stallions but going through the troubles of keeping them stallion, promoting him as a stallion and go through the troubles of breeding him cheap in the hope that one day he might be able to earn his keep).
You should do a picture query in Google on “asil stallion at stud, saudi lines”, very funny – Edouard what deal did you make with Google?
Jenny, you made me laugh 🙂
Patrick you have written a lot of sound sense, harsh but to some extent fair.
I have said it before, the Bedouin of the past would only have bred from, in fact could only have KEPT horses who justified their keep under saddle, the rest would go to the towns, the desert is not the place for expensive luxuries or the indulgence of whims and sentiment.
I have ‘only’ purebreds..( though how you would tell they are not Asil other than by looking at a piece of paper I don’t know, they have Arab looks, movement, intelligence, loyalty, endurance and agility in spades and Arab mtDNA for that matter…Nevertheless I acknowledge and respect the integrity of Asil breeding, I would certainly be interested in using an Asil sire when I next breed, in fact that would be my ideal, PROVIDING he is seriously proven under saddle and has all the physical and attributes of character that make an Arab who he is. From what I have seen on here I would certainly look at a Davenport for example and to be honest size would not be a major concern for me… how big is the supreme endurance horse ‘Nobby’ for example?, though I must admit that I personally don’t need a big horse to ride.
Oh sorry, I do agree with much of what you said, but actually I WOULD be interested in looking at Tahawi stallions, even for ‘purebred’ mares, I value the ‘Bedouin’ criteria in a horse above all, certainly above the limited and quite ridiculous criteria of todays show ring, so yes I would certainly be interested in a Bedouin stallion.
I meant that I agreed with you more generally in terms of being coldly objective about the quality of the actual horse, before even refering to the pedigree.
Sorry again, but it has to be said Patrick that Bruce, preservation breeder or not,(I don’t know him), has always on here advocated real testing of individual horses and seems to me to be a proper horseman not a paper pedigree breeder, your points hold true but ironic that a post from Bruce, of all people provoked them! 🙂
Lisa,
Point that I’m trying to make is not about testing under saddle – every Arabian should be tested under saddle before being used for breeding. I do oppose single purpose breeding, regardless if it for show, endurance or racing.
The Arabian should be the versatile & beautiful athlete in the first place. One of the finest examples in recent times was Crusader: asil, showchampion, typey yet big size and a race winner.
Here in Europe we’ve seen breeders switch to solely racing & endurance purposes – ending up with horses that have nothing, nothing at all to do with Arabian horses except their papers. They all can run of course.
In the USA, many if not most of the preservationist breeders seem to have started focussing on endurance as well, probably ’cause looks don’t matter and if they can run, they have at least some market but in the end it is a dead end street. On top of that, they all seem to be boxed in narrow based breeding stock. Following down the Sam Roach horses and a few other Saudi imports, I was quite surprised to see that they mostly bred on between those lines, occassionally bringing in Babson through Turfa lines. So many little groups when the base could have been, could still be important. Edouard must come over as very refreshing but he’s simply a natural horsebreeder, looking to combine characteristics to breed horses of his goal.
As for the excuse of asils not needing type ’cause this was not a criteria of the bedu + Rzewuski’s & Guarmani’s description of the Nejdi Arabians was mostly their imagination – says who frankly?
In more or less 1 century, the bedu in Nejd were first stripped of their finest by the Sauds, then by the Egyptians, then Sauds again (after which Blunt mentioned that the breed was risking to become extinct) then European buyers, then Saud again, then huge migrations through Sauds on marsh & the Arab revolt, then draught, then Saud again (Edouard, I have always wondered if the British have triggered the Arab revolt or the pressure of Saud)
After a couple of decades Napoleon there were basically no cavalry horses left in Europe. I’m pretty sure the Nejdi purebred as described by Guarmany and Rzewuski was by the end of the 19th century already rare so obviously they became exception on the rule.
Edouard often refers here that the criteria of type are completely different in the bedu homelands than in the west, yet (with a few exceptions) all the pictures of the desert breds from his youth that he took pictures of, are definitively very typey (although not in the definition of show world champions).
So frankly, I really don’t get it. Why are so many preservationist “breeders” continuing to breed from mongrel inbred asil stallions when there are still so many versatile & beautiful asil stallions around. At least Edouard is not only keeping a blog, I think he’s giving an important signal by selecting a nucleus of mares of different asil “groups” and breeding them to stallions outside their “groups” because of what he hopes to breed (breeding is not equal to preserving) by combining the parents. I hope it will get somehow through the tick narrow minded heads of most “preservationists” and maybe they will start “breeding” some day as well with the best asil stallions available so that there is a future for the asil Arabian instead of the dead end street where it is clearly going now.
Sorry Patrick, I appreciate that that was not entirely your point I sort of went off on a tangent in my thinking starting from your point (if I have understood you) that breeding selection should not based entirely on pedigree, conveniently ignoring the fact that the actual horse may be of inferior quality. That a horse should not be venerated or even bred from just because of his pedigree,unless he is worthy of it, and that Asil horses should be out there being seen to be doing. I have loved the photos of many of the horses that I have seen on here but like you have also seen some pictures of stallions that I would put in the un-cut gelding category
I am very well aware of the danger of selecting for one criteria only eg speed, endurance or beauty of the head, all paths are equally threatening to the integrity of the breed, the essence of which is the sum of all the qualities that we have listed so many times,of athleticism, character and physical type. To be fair testing under saddle does test more than the fact that a horse ‘can run’, endurance for example at higher levels will not just select for a horse that ‘can run’ but make huge demands on the cooperative spirit and generosity of the horse, his thriftiness and ‘sense’ as well as the obvious testing cardiorespiratory function and limb structural integrity.
However to value proven performance does not necessarily render one blind to physical type and beauty!
I have said ad nauseam (eg on the Post Arabian thread) that the I believe that ‘Bedouin’ criteria encompass ALL the qualities of character,athleticism and points physical type and why I think that that is so, the fact that the Arab is who he is after millenia in solely Bedouin hands proves the point.
Again I agree with you and Edouard that breeding from the best of all the Asil groups ,’mixed source’,seems to me to be the way to breed really superlative Asil horses.
Linda, pedigree is of course part of breeding asil Arabians, otherwise it would not be possible to speak about asils.
The most simple description of Arabian horses throughout history is that they are versatile & beautiful athletes. If they have just become athletes and especially if they have become sole purpose athletes, they’re only Arabians on paper – asil or not (my personal opinion of course)
Any conditioned Arabian should be able to run a 60 km endurance ride (that’s a walk in the park), a 10 km cross with natural obstacles and a small dressage test. Any conditioned Arabian! Any conditioned Arabian passing a group of warmblood or quarterhorse riders should be able to awe them with his appearance.
The Arabian was famous for its adaptation & survival in the harsh desert climate, after Napoleons retreat in Russia it became even famous for survival & adaptation anywhere.
Unless you’re a freak sheikh, Arabian horses no longer have to run 200 miles through the desert in 24 hours, they no longer have to survive hot summers on roasted locust, dates & camelmilk and they don’t have to walk back through the worst Russian winter from Moscow to Riga without food or shelter.
I’m sure there are still a few wealthy freak sheikhs in the Middle-East that feed their horses on dates and camelmilk, there are probably a few old bedu’s that do the same with an old mare they treasure and if they’re lucky, one of their grandsons will do the same with a filly of the old mare but in the end they will all dissapear.
If asil Arabians want to survive the “pure bred assimilation” it’s about time they adapt to modern times – preservation means breeding and breeding means keeping the best & selling the rest – unless money doesn’t matter & you’re willing to sent the rest to the slaughterhouse.
Preserving = Breeding = Selling = Market = versatile & beautiful athletes
About “chubby” … in general endurance horses are of average size 148 to 155 cm. Both very small as very big Arabians are not common and thus no “market” reference either. Adult males are today in average at least 10 to 15 taller than in the 19th century. Part of the adaptation for asil Arabians to survive modern times is adapting to this fact as well.
Dear Patrick,
Please, I am not arguing with you… I agree with you on many points.
I am, surely it goes without saying, aware that a pristine pedigree is what makes a horse Asil.
I am also aware that 60km is the sort of distance that horses do in their first open season, eg as I did on my youngster last summer, we have an advanced horse too who we compete at a higher level.
I am also aware that horses are no longer subjected to the desert rigours that they were 100 years ago,but maintain that it is selection to withstand these rigours which made the Arab horse who he is.
I assume that you mean Nobby not ‘Chubby’ ? Otherwise I don’t understand that sentence.
I have no right to comment in any case I am not an Asil breeder, I will not post again! 🙂
Cheers
Lisa
PS 🙂 I would add that I have worked with many horses in the Maghreb for whom dates do in fact make up a large part of their diet 🙂 , their teeth are horrendous!
Lisa – I meant Nobby, don’t know how I came on Chubby, I was working on a database at the same time. Interesting about the dates, read somewhere in a magazine about royal stables in Jordan that they recovered a foal on dates, must be very nutricious?
I breed the kind of horse that I like to ride and that I like to have around. Simple as that. They are very recognizably Arabian, and they are under 15 hands. At least one of my horses, Periwinkle CF, is probably more inbred a horse than Patrick has ever seen. She’s my tallest horse, very typey, and one of the best trail horses I’ve ever owned. She also shows talent for dressage, at least the lower level dressage of which I’m capable. My horses need to be sound enough of mind and body to carry me on trail rides and do some basic dressage. I like to see obvious Arabian type and balanced conformation, and have a head, neck, and shoulder that sets up well in a bridle for basic dressage. I enjoy a powerful moving horse, too. Could my horses win a sprint race on a parimutuel track? I don’t know and honestly don’t much care. The handling and training they would be subjected to at most tracks would likely make them less suitable for what I really want to do with them.
Bazy Tankersley repeatedly advised people, both in print and in person, not to follow the market because by the time you figure out what the market is and have youngsters ready to sell, the market will have changed. She advised instead to breed the kind of horse you like and then educate buyers regarding its virtues.
And nobody, but nobody, has owned, bred (2,824 and still counting) and sold as many Arabians as Bazy has, over as many years as she has (72 years of Arabian ownership and still counting).
Patrick, who argued that “asils don’t need type”? And how did you learn so much about everything? Again and again your experience seems to be exactly contrary to mine.
As for feeding dates, I don’t think they’re magic. Some of the folks who worked for ARAMCO and lived in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia in the 1950s said that locals sometimes fed dates to their horses and at first they wondered if maybe that was what they should feed their horses, too. Soon they realized however that people fed dates only because that was all they had.
Patrick: To paraphrase- ‘the deadend street where asil breeding is going now’- Well maybe yes and then again probably not! See Patrick what the asils i have run across have pretty nearly all had to offer was – horse type- not cattle type. This happened precisely because they were not popular and din’t get stuck in the fad breeding crazes that swept the western arabian scene multiple times.
In a later post i will enlighten you about horse versus cattle type. but right now its off to bed
Best wishes
bruce Peek
I said I wouldn’t post but being stuck on a computer preparing lectures I was tempted to look.
I nearly put after my response to Patrick’s comment re dates that I didn’t want to start a debate on nutrition but sure enough….. 🙂
Of course dates are nutritious and they are fed by Arab
people to their horses because they are readily available, they don’t have magic properties but they do rot their teeth.
Bruce … are you talking about Jersey cow type
in particular?
🙂
I will read with interest but try not to post as it feels like we are just arguing in circles here!
Right back to equine cardiology! 🙂
because the ,’Mongrel inbred stallion,’ when crossed to a Waho mare is going to give you something very nice indeed. Using linebred outcrossing has been the best path for most all animal breeding. This has been proved by Babolna with its breed in three generations( so you can establish and firmly set type) then outcross on the 4th generation method of breeding. Something similar was done by the EAO with its use of Sameh and Sid Abouham, both of whom came from desert lines and helped to correct some of the undesirable Nazeer and moniet tendencies of poor movement, low set necks, and wretched dispositions.
As to horse type- horse type refers to a back thats flexible and not locked down. Because in horse type the hindquarters are tucked under thereby enabling the horse to raise its back, which in turn raises the forehand giving lightness, finally the neck must arch and the poll must flex to achieve true collection. If you look at a picture of most any waho stallion in the arabian magazines you will see draggy hindquarters and little dips in the horses saddle area-( though often with a quasi arched neck) I would suspect that most of these horses could be trained to move in true collection if their show scene trainers knew what they were doing but they don’t. A cow when it lumbers along is unable to bend its lumbar spine and tuck its hindend. A fact which has saved the life of many a matador- once the bull has been exhausted and his shoulder muscles disabled by stabbing with darts he is unable to do much more than run foreward on the forehand. This is also the reason why cattle guards work- a bovine is unable to jump far enough to get across them. Because
a horse has a special lumbar spine arrangement a horse can jump a distance or a greater height than a cow which is only capable of stepping over obstacles.
Once your eye has been educated to hindend confirmation and when and how good athletic development can compensate for less than stellar bone length and angle you can choose which horses will give the horse like ride and which horses will not.
In perusing the Arabian sale ads on the internet you run across a great many horses that drag their hindends while moving at liberty- this means there is very little chance of them ever being able to truly collect under saddle and balance the weight of a rider. There is a guy in washington state who linebreeds to Pietusczock(sp) who has some good moving horses, and another breeder who also has bred some nice moving geldings- albiet with small high set eyes betraying their
Polish ancestry. These are the rare exception in the waho world of breeders. But turn to the asils and you find the davenports, the saudi lines bred by edie Booth and those guys in canada and egyptian here and there, both old and new
and of course some of the Pritzlaffs too.
So the thing to do is get out and prove our horses and advertise them and their photos in the mainstream press which will educate the public.
best wishes
Bruce Peek
Well so much for every one’s opinions?
Does Edouard propose A.I. as a substitute for the mare and stallion? Seems, yes, yet, in doing so will this limit or change the back yard breeder, as to stallions and mares? Limited stallion owners will bring rise to cost, and perhaps end small breeding farms. Or even worse create more foals? Without, ever knowing the stallion, except via the web. A very poor substitute to a known living with a stallion, mare’s, and the foals.
The greatest joy lost, will be the loss of everyday effort of maintaining one’s own stallion or stallions. Some farms today are not at a home, but scattered, setting a different standard. Boarding mares to farms who have the stallion’s, requires trust upon both parties, a very difficult event, more often broken then not.
The cooperation of stallion owners and mare owners would
be stretched if A.I. is limited. Yet, the extra cost, and the will of the stallion and mare is forgotten. Oddly my stallions of now and the past await their foals, as the mares look to their foals and the stallion as known. I will not change this belonging as to I. Yes, horses come and go, just as family. Situations change as I, yet, my thinking stays and I answer to within the silence of knowing. Knowing the horses, I have chosen to go on with.
This includes, foals, mares, and the stallions.
To answer, Edouard your given question, I am taken with all the above reasons and very separating opinions. It would be easy to reason, each has their own thoughts as to the stallions, or mares. Given this separate thinking, A.I., would be an endless expense to the stallion owner, and perhaps to the experience of our horses.
Needless, I shall not be apart of A.I. with my stallion’s. This is and has been a long standing decisions,now restudied.
A good questions which seems to have no boundaries.
JMH/Bedouin Arabians
Sorry Bruce, I thought that you were going to use Lady Anne Lytton’s Jersey cow analogy.
I could not,however, agree with you more, there is nothing worse than trailing or bicycling ‘going nowhere’ hocks. Having said that I know many wonderful-moving ‘WAHO’ horses, who power off strong engaged hocks to float over a huge amount of ground at each stride.
Lady Wentworth (yes I know!) stated that an Arab should overtrack by 12-18″ and to be fair my (largely Crabbet) horses do her comment some justice.
I think the picture may be different in America… dare I use the word ‘worse’? The American magazines make me feel like crying (eg the ‘Park’ (is that the right term?)style hurts my eyes), the stretched pose, the half hogged manes, shaved eyes arghhh!
Europe has followed and we them but to a lesser extent.
However the lovely Asil American horses on here remind me more of the Old English/Crabbet horses still so popular as riding horses here though fewer are being bred by the big fashionable studs. (And I know that I have that particular chicken and egg the wrong way round,just that that is the order that I encountered them in my life!)
Jackson,
I totally understand and agree with your sentiments, there is nothing better than breeding horses at home and for them to be living as a family herd, developed over a lifetime. Such small studs are very precious indeed to the Arab breed as a whole and must be a joy to their owners.
AI is not a better option than that.
It is just a tool that facilitates the international exchange of genetic elements of a fairly limited genepool and could be instrumental in saving some lines, eg as I have said by freezing older stallions etc
It gives mare owners with no stallion a wider choice which means that better breeding decisions may be made than those dictated necessarily by geography.
It is a technique that has it’s place I think, much as Fabienne stated, no more nor less than that.
Cheers
Lisa
Sorry to post yet again having said that I will refrain!
Don’t stop, Lisa – I find your posts interesting and educational. You are more than qualified to state your opinions here.
I agree with Jenny and Jackson, Lisa. Sometimes discussions can get frustrating and feel like you are going in circles, but it’s part of what comes with conveying thoughts in writing, to people who don’t always know who you are and where you are coming from, and who live several thousand miles away. I find it amazing that people still manage to talk despite these constraints.
Lisa,
I found frustration in writing on this blog several years ago, yet, Edouard asked me to rethink, and continue.
As Jenny Krieg stated, and I agree, you have much to say! And you say what is on your mind with respect to the topic and those who have written. You have brought your
World to the rest of us, and that says a lot.
Thanks, jmh/Bedouin Arabians
Eugène Gayot,directeur du haras national de pompadour au XIXème siècle et créateur de l’anglo arabe a dit que la seule qualité du cheval arabe était de les avoir toutes et on peut traduire aujourd’hui que c’est la graine de toutes les discipines équestres.on va donc à l’encontre de la race si des branches de la race sont spécialisées.
Il ne faudrait pas spécialiser outre mesure le cheval arabe asil dans une discipline,tous les individus asils doivent avoir une certaine polyvalence
Bien sur,on doit tout de suite reconnaitre le cheval arabe dans chaque individu et il est très triste qu’on soit obligé de regarder les papiers pour certains chevaux arabes m^eme en mouvement pour voir que c’est un arabe.On en voit malheureusement de plus en plus dans le cheval d’endurance,je ne parle pas des arabes de course et malheureusement les chevaux de show sont devenus des poupées barbie et sans intér^et pour la selle.
Certains ne voit plus d’intér^et pour les qualités ancestrales du cheval arabe soit la solidité,la résistance à l’effort,aux climats difficiles,la rusticité.Je crois que cela est encore d’actualité,les grandes épreuves de 130 km ou 160 km se courrent souvent sous la chaleur(30 à 35° en France à l’ombre) ou sous la pluie d’orage et en meme temps,les m^emes ou leur famille proche supporte à l’extérieur 24 Heures sur 24 des hivers rigoureux sans aucun problème de santé bien su^r sans mourir de faim et je crois tout ceci permet de garder quelque temps les qualités du cheval arabe dans nos pays occidentaux si les individus ont de la place pour bien se déplacer.D’autres éleveurs avec peu de chevaux peuvent monter les juments pleines ou suitées ainsi que des jeunes chevaux en leur demandant des efforts compatibles avec leur ^age.
Des éleveurs de chevaux asils ou non ou d’autres races sortent des boxes leurs chevaux et juments suitées ou non dans les paddocks en scrutant auparavant le ciel,en mouillant leur doigt pour sentir le vent,en regardant la température etc…
Je doute fort que leurs chevaux soient solides et dans d’autres conditions,le vétérinaire fera sans doute fortune.
La taille ne sera pas la m^eme mais pour moi le cheval sera plus fiable au travail.
Je suis d’accord avec Lisa pour dire que la générosité au travail,le cardiaque,les tissus sont très importants et surtout ne pas oublier l’intelligence et l’amour de l’homme.
Pour la mode,il est vrai que certains éleveurs de show et d’autres donnent à un certain moment la note,d’autres suivent en achetant les reproducteurs chez les premiers pour se rendre compte quelques années plus tard en cherchant à vendre les produits que la mode a changé.Il vaut mieux faire ce qu’on aime et expliquer ses choix
Fabienne, I do not speak French, and so am dependent on translate.google, but I wanted to say that, if I am understanding correctly, I agree with you here!
Edouard,
Difficult to read Fabienne’s remarks,my dad used to say
I should take English as a foreign language, and it was the only language I ever attempted. Once you had a translation key to translate the other languages written? Guess this is a good time again? Seems the world is now listening to your thoughts on preservation. Perhaps this will carry over to the realization of; “about time” for all things living. Preserving the common we all our.
A web that is making the world so much smaller. Yet, language is as always a divider. What is common is the love of the Bedouin Arabian horse.
Oh, Lisa do you make house calls with the horses? Pure Bred or Asil?
JMH/Bedouin Arabians
Edouard,
We bred Lili Marlene to Bah-Rani this year via shipped semen, his first such effort. His semen quality was excellent,and she settled with the first insemination.
Best wishes,
Fred Mimmack
Fred, congratulations. You know your actions are incredibly important because there is no other breed of horse that is only descended from the proto hotblood, one of the 4 distinctive types found by early man after the last ice age. Everything else- and I mean everything Tarpans, Drafts and forest horses are either extinct or so cross bred it would take several lifetimes to backbreed them into existence again. That is why arabians that have tarpan and turkoman, and saddlebred, and thoroughbred should be listed by the registries. And also why arabians that we know or can reasonably assume do not have foreign blood should also be listed and preserved. And to me what is what Al Khamsa and this blog and preservation breeding is all about.
Best wishes
Bruce Peek
Thanks Jenny, Jackson,Edouard.
I do say TOO much though,I blame being Welsh, we almost all talk too much! 🙂
Jackson do you mean do I do visits on my horses?
If so…yes it has happened…when we have deep snow!!
If you mean to horses, we do yes and we have a huge number of purebreds on our books but the only Asils are SE.
Lisa,
“I have no right to comment,” I was simply making light of your comment, “Pure Bred not Asil.” Wondering what, since you have only Pure Bred’s,and have no right to comment, does this mean you have really no right to comment as a vet.
Yet, now I feel I had no right to make light as you took my comment serious. Perhaps, you too, were making light of my comments? Any way, we all take too serious, our own feelings and writings.
You can quote me. JMH
Doh,I was not making light, just being stupid! I thought that I had not understood you properly but felt rude not replying at all,now I understand,that was a sweet thing to say,thanks Jackson!
Will people stop with the size thing allready?! The most athletic horse and rider combination in the last 75 years were Mark Todd and Charisma. Todd stood 6 foot 5, and Charisma was supposedly 15.3. They won the individual gold medals in 3 day eventing in 1988 and 1992… Most people, meaning everyone except those standing over 6 foot 2 need nothing taller than 15.2 even with a close contact saddle. With a stock saddle 15 hands is fine with me and i’m 6-2 with a 34 &1/2 inch inseam.. People don’t need or even want FEI level horses. The horse of average confirmation and size if properly trained and ridden, will always be able to perform to a level far higher than the average rider.
Sorry for the soapbox
Best wishes
Bruce Peek
Any room on the soap box for me?
Couldn’t agree with you more.
@Bruce: you confirm my point – Arabians of +15 hands are marketable, if you breed 14hands Arabians you limit selling your offspring to small people and kids.
I’m 6 feet and a bit (or 182 cm) – I guess like a quarter of the western male population. Anything under 15 hands is simply uncomfortable for me, regardless how great movers they are.
I have a stallion around 15 hands – 150 cm (little bit smaller), he can do but is not ideal. Have however also had a 15 hands gelding who was more comfortable for me than a 16hands stallion
I have had a 16 hands – 162 cm (asil) stallion as mentioned and currently have a 16 hands – 163 cm and growing (asil) gelding – yet the perfect size for me is around 15.3 hands – 155-158 cm, this is always feels like perfect
Patrick: I’d be willing to bet that the use of a solid framed jinetta balanced saddle would make the 15 hand horse a more comfortable ride for you- it does for me. The advantage here of course is that I get to ride horses ( waho arabs) who are cheap to purchase due to their abundance. The framed saddle holds the rider a couple of inches above the horses spine and back thus effectively lengthening the size of the seat thereby making the ride more comfortable. The close contact saddle however, usually because of frequently poor fit, dumps the riders weight either on top of the spine or so close to it that it impinges- rubs- on the spine thus constantly firing the nerves of the spine and keeping the muscles flexed. Constantly flexed muscles prevents the horse from lifting his back and slightly bending all of the joints in his legs, back, and neck. If the bones bend as opposed to being locked the impact of every stride is absorbed rather than magnified. This, the worlds cavalries have found, is what enables properly ridden horses to stay sound into advanced old age.
As for the size thing, the head of MSU’s arab breeding operation John Scheile(sp) once told me about getting a 15.3 hand 3 year old gelding by crossing a linebred Nazeer horse with a line bred Bask horse. So I would suspect that the way to get the size is to do the outcrossing.
Best wishes
Bruce Peek
I agree with you, Bruce. I’ve seen it many times. Size often comes from outcrossing, but not in every instance. What does come through in almost every case, though, is some aspect of hybrid vigor, which is not always a good thing. You probably don’t want, for instance, a more ‘vigorous’ bad disposition!
(I think the point re Charisma was that if a 6’5” man on 15.3 tb can fly round the likes of BADMINTON etc,the rest of us, mostly not 6’5” and not competing at 4*, will probably have all the fun we ever want on something a little smaller, not that we need 15.3 hh Arabs?!)
I would note that many really big Arabs make up a lot of their height in having long cannons, not something that I would look for in a horse.
My current riding Arab is just under 15.2,my previous (sadly deceased) just under 14.3, both equally lovely to ride. 🙂
Another way to get extra height is to open out the joint angles in the legs. The more closed angles of the classic Arabian type gives a lot of power and spring and support to the ride.
Great discussions, I really enjoy reading all of the different viewpoints.
On the thoughts of proposed use of Asil/AK stallions through any type of AI, can… have merit.
We have & will continue to freeze stallions, but not for INT’L use, due to the fact that US stallions have to go into quarantine for 3 months SEPT- DEC(here), plus ..the INT’L semen frozen MUST be kept at an approved USDA Vet/facility, not at home where mine is in my tanks.
Let’s put it this way… We do AI & still hand breed mares here, and keep stallions & mares, and foals here, but .. IF anything should happen to any of the stallions, I sleep better at night knowing…
I CAN>> at any time in MY lifetime( or to those I share with or leave to in my will), as long as I maintain my tanks, USE any stallion in the tanks… whenever that perfect mare begging for that blood arrives, needs it or grows up.
We love our stallions, and ride and show SOME of our stallions/horses. We just can’t operate on our own, a farm, with all of the other animals we raise, crops, fixing fences, or anything else, & afford to be out (whatever activity) every weekend. Some years we go for it and go to many, while other years we might go to TWO, or NONE.
Who gets to stay home on the farm?
We can take six and that is not an undertaking I like for ME, alone, not only to care for, but to prep. We have gone to Open shows, Dressage, Hunter Pace, Team Penning, CTR- or to the purebred Arab shows and have taken a whole trailer full(6), and not gotten stalls in the stables…. all with 2 stallions in partitioned trailer stalls next to mares, half doors open, in a grass parking area next to other trailers for the day, with one or two horses in them. Our “neighbors” and “passers-by” ALL day long, would make comments about how well our horses behaved, as many had to be unloaded to get to the next horse going in the ring, and re loaded, so this went on all day, stallions included. MANY could not believe that the stallions(2) could be near each other, much less next to mares or youngsters. Did we win? We placed in most of the classes, but that was not why we went. People with PURE BRED Arabs DO need to see the AK/Asil horses, as they are. People from the audience do come over to hear what they are. We are really NOT trying to look like the others, but we do see the judges’s dilemma’s in his “picks” as he has to look CONSISTENT in what he chooses, and that is what is presented. THEM & US. There are more of THEM that the judges are used to seeing. AK has only about 3% of the entire Arabian population and fewer than that SHOW or go anywhere. I do not know how to explain this to Patrick (in particular), but they are not the SAME as General List(here in US)purebred Arabians, who can be mainly Tankersley “Crabbet” breeding(MD-PA area) or Spanish or Polish blends.
I will share this with you. Years ago we took Salil Ibn Iliad (Iliad x LD Rubic) AK /Asil “sharps” tf *NUFOUD group, to a Pure Bred Arab show, and we entered him in the 3yr old stallion breeding class. Our daughter Megan, then 15, presented him, and he was a PERFECT gentleman the whole time he was in the ring, while ..I might add, the others looked H-U-G-E (all over), as if they were in the wrong class, as they looked fully mature, and were fractious and disobedient to their handlers and downright hostile while being presented. Salil stood well, presented well, went into the trot well, and came back to the judge and looked him in the eye, as if to say “Aren’t you proud of me and pet me?”. The super charged stallion, whose gaits could not be seen due to his romping over his handler, won. On the way out of the ring, Megan was stopped by the show ring steward who asked, because of Salil’s irridescent SHINING brilliant red bay coat, “Is he a son of Khemosabi>?” to which Megan proudly replied, “NO, this one is a REAL Arabian.” as she exited. Maybe Eduoard will post pics I sent him of Salil, so you can see him.
If we take 6 and go into ONE class, then a judge is looking at horses .. more or less .. of the same TYPE, as a majority, unless there are lots of entries, so a judge might see “merit” in what is presented. OR, as Patrick might note, based on previous postings, they should all be culled, based on the fact that the judge could come from “anywhere” and is used to seeing “X__POLISH blend” horses and these do not look like THOSE !
Europe (other places) is different, clearly, in all breeding aspects of horses; from selection, proving stallions through performance, inspections, breeding licenses, evaluation of foals from newly approved stallions and it is not the SELECTION of foals, but ALL of them, no hidden ones, where a stallion license can be pulled… through mares, and culling… meaning NOT approved into the studbook when fillies turn 3. We are used to that type of practice, here in the US, in our Trakehner warmblood program using our purebred Arabians APPROVED through inspection. I still believe that Megan’s AK/ Asil mare, 1986 Hart Asheera(Rafeer RSI x Nisrs Asha)tf *Wadduda, is the ONLY Al Khamsa/Asil Arabian mare inspected & Approved in the Trakehner Stud Book. Asheera’s Anglo Arabian daughter is also approved in the Trakehner Stud book, and is Asheera’s only filly.
In purebred Arabians, here, there IS no “stamp of approval” on stallions, to say they CAN be permitted to breed, or mares, or which colts should be gelded, by a “body” of “anybody”.
To think more about experiences shared here.. Jackson’s or RJ’s, or RLH, Eduoard’s, Joe’s, Patrick’s or Charles’ views… there are going to be differences, and that is good, since we are all looking with a different “eye” of likes and expectations, which I don’t think is a BAD thing. Each one of us has to look at what we feed every day & ride.
A person came here for a tour, and we walked around fields and looked at horses. At the end of the tour, this man looked puzzled and said, “All of your horses have “WITHERS.”
Looking at him, I thought, I GUESS he has horses that DON’T! I don’t LIKE to use a crupper, but HAVE, on occasion– because I don’t like to dismount to move my saddle when climbing up & down mountains… and probably my “EYE” selects for horses that HAVE withers. Most of my horses have longer ears, too, but does not make them MULES. Am I going to breed for the “EARS”? NOT LIKELY.
A longtime breeder, whose opinion I respect, told me many years ago, she saw AK/Asil horses she had bred, 10-15 years later, who had completed levels of awards in our US Arabian show system, that she GELDED ! She told me that MANY times she GELDED the wrong horses. Yes, those geldings are the “Ambassadors” who go out and do things, & are most apt to be bought by those who show in anything. The young colts she kept as stallions did not end up being quite the horses she found in her gelded stock she sold. So it is difficult to KNOW which ones to CULL, and when… even at 3 or 4 years, you might not know it all. Who can keep that many colts as stallions to know? I am getting around to saying that I CAN freeze semen on a 4 year old stallion I LIKE, and still geld him, after getting what I feel is ENOUGH frozen, and use the frozen semen here in the US(or Canada with proper permits now) and it does NOT cost that much to do, frankly, as compared to INT’L freezing where the stallion has to go through many tests, freezes and then those straws thawed & tested, all while in 3 months quarantine at a USDA station… PLUS… now with better methods and technology, a stallion can be COLLECTED FRESH, and then SENT to be frozen, just as if sending to a mare, or have a Mobile Lab come to the farm, and freeze several stallions, which is what we do.
Here’s a thought… with proper preparation, which I won’t go into here, you can GELD a 3-4 yr old colt, and SEND “what is removed”, in a fresh semen shipping container and have THAT frozen if you only want ONE collection to have, which can be from 5-20 breeding doses by the way …for the “just in case” …idea<>… after the fact… you find you should not have gelded him. You can always use it on a MUSTANG… which is BOUND to make an improvement… AND have a useable registerable HALF ARABIAN. Isn’t breeding mustangs with his ASIL’s what ALBERT HARRIS used to do in his PARTBRED program?
The semen will be here 40,000 years if the tank is maintained, so think of the future…..certainly use what stallion is here NOW, but, in fact, someone else will be the “keeper” later, and they might regret you did NOT freeze “thus and so” stallion.
more to ponder on ….
and, Eduoard, or others who might want to use Salil Ibn Iliad before he is gone??? He is near Myrtle Beach, SC, with Pam Baker, and very healthy. I have other AK/Asil stallions of the AK SELMA I, H-S strain & both are homozygous black sired by Babson stallions, Faydin & BW Fadl Tali by Faydin. I can lease, & transport, too, if that is the way you want to go. Send me an email.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/msf+hamdani+simri
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/msf+hamdani+nakhda
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/salil+ibn+iliad
Here is a perfect example of what we like to see<>…
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/msf+rais (look at the photo)
Salil Ibn Iliad x Hart Asheera -gelding
sold at age 4 (under saddle one year) to a little girl, aged 8, who mopped up in open hunter, judged trail ride, hunter pace, CTR, Arabian Sporthorse, Open Sporthorse, Polo Cross & PC Games, Pony Club Team to GOLD Medal at KY Rolex team PC competition, and LOVED. He was the ONLY Arabian in the stable, and ended up beating them all when they went to shows. They will keep him forever, as she is now in college & mom teaches students on him. There- Patrick, is a $30,000 or more AK .. Uh-OH, just barely AT 14.2hh gelding (I know because they were worried about his PONY card).
Best wishes to all <<~~~
ran across this post surfing google. I use to have Kellogg heavy Davenport bred mares. and Egyptian bred stallions. This is back in the last 70s and early 80s. Right before and during the big tax bust. I remember Monsoon, Sir, etc. I am now in the Colonial Spanish world. Every group within that world is at risk in terms of viable breeding number save the Paso Fino and Peruvian Paso. Even in those breeds the preservationists of old lineages are few and far between.
What some of us have done is create a Fellowship. IN the Fellowship we are organizing such things as a Spanish Colonial Conquest Influenced breed, strain, variety database. We have a declaration by which we conduct ourselves that declares brother hood and sisterhood. We are collecting all our DNA reports or every breed… etc. many things. part of our function is to create funds for preservation. We plan to be a membership fee free organization. You might look at a social network like Ning.com where you can pool together, create E shops, gifts for purchase, pay per views. etc to begin to raise funds towards your semen bank goals. a semen bank is easy to maintain as well – one or two time collections for frozen capable stallion can keep cost down for owners. Just some ideas to share, As I feel your frustration as a once lover of the old straight lines Id love to see them preserved.
that’s great advice, Susan. I will gladly take it.
Excellent idea-and sometimes it does take group effort to get stallions collected and available and time is running short for some of these stallions. I think that the low conception rate on frozen vs live cover/collection -is and can be a deterent-..time is running short for breeders in general with the low foal birth rates and the largest % of our breed in this country approaching the average age of 20. Group effort is a must.