Investigating the french archives : Babolna in 1827
First, I would like to thank Edouard who generously offered me to post on this blog about the numerous findings from the French archives. It will be, I hope, the first of many posts to be shared with the worldwide community of Arabian horse breeders and enthusiasts.
In January 1829, the “Journal des Haras”, the French National Stud’s Journal, included a very detailed article of a visit of National Stud officials to the Babolna Stud in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The visit took place in 1827. At that time, the French were presented with 10 Arabian stallions. From these 10, 5 belonged to a group of 13 Arabian stallions and a couple of “other” horses sent in 1824 to Hungary by M. Glioccho (spelled “Pliocho” by the French). They were purchased from the Panz family of Constantinople for 8,000 ducats and had already been used as breeding stallions before. Here are the details provided by M. Erdelyi, with my translation:
1 – Siglavy-Gidran aka *Shaklavy-Gidean, 16 years old, 14 hands and 3 inches, a Saklawi of Nedjd, Gidran family, dark chestnut, a star on the forehead and both white hind legs.
2 – Gidran, first son of Siglavy-Gidran and the Nedjdi mare Tifle aka *Fisle of the Hamdaniah family, light chestnut, a star on the forehead, right hind-leg sock and both left legs with higher socks, 10 years old, 15 hands and one inch.
3 – Fedchan, 19 years old, 14 hands 2 inches and one line, a *Sucaan horse of the *Fedcham family, liver chestnut, large blaze, both front legs white up to the coronets, both hind legs withe up to the hocks.
4 – Nilus, purebred Arabian, 17 years old, 14 hands and 3 inches, light bay, narrow blaze and one hind leg sock.
5 – Aly, purebred Arabian, 14 years old, 15 hands, flea-bitten grey
6 – Anaze, 9 years old, 15 hands 1 inch and 8 lines, from the Anazeh of the desert around Damascus, liver chestnut, white blaze on the chanfrin, left foreleg and both hind-legs socks.
7 – Durzy aka *Durze, 9 years old, 14 hands 3 inches and 3 lines, a Nedjdi horse from Djebel-El-Druze, a star and right hind-leg sock.
8 – *Abechy, purebred Arabian from Abyssinia, steel grey, a star and both hind-legs socks, 7 years old, 14 hands 2 inches and one line.
9 – Nedjdi Baba aka *Nedschdi-Baba, 10 years old, 14 hands 2 inches and 2 lines, a Nedjdi horse, dapple-grey, right foreleg and left hind-leg white up to the knee, both remaining legs full white.
10 – Samhan, purebred Arabian, 9 years old, 15 hands 1 inch, of *Ferijan family, steel grey, large blaze and four white feet.
Number 6/7/8/9/10 are stallions from the Glioccho importation. The eight remaining stallions from the same importation were sent to the Mezoehegyes and Radautz Studs. The Arabians ones were: Siglavy a golden chestnut, Wehaby a brown, Abuleile a dapple-grey, Nedjdi a grey/white, Nedjdi a black and Gazal a roan chestnut. Plus two stallions from the Kurds: *Bozok and *Kuby, both brown.
Note: names with * are spelled the french way and may be written differently in any other European language.
Fantastic! Do they have asil descent?
Number 10 is from the old Frayjan strain, tracing back to the Frejah clan of the Ruwalah, and known after them. An antique strain now gone. There were a few left in Lebanon in 1974.
I remember Lazlo Monostory saying years ago that some of the Furioso North stars that were foundational to the Hungarian warmbloods descended from French stock taken as reparations following the end of the Napoleonic wars.. I thought though that Babolna didn’t really get going until 1836 when the Shagyas started to be bred there.. Interesting
best
Bruce Peek
I believe they do at least through Soldateska’s descent at Weil.
Anaze is to be found in the pedigree of Koheil III (Soldateska’s great grand-dam).
What is most interesting regarding this list is that it points out the several different stallions called either “Siglavy” and/or “Gidran”. They were three of them: Siglavy Gidran the dark chesnut at Babolna, his son out of Tifle named Gidran a light chesnut at Babolna and another Siglavy a golden chesnut at Mezoeghyes. It seems like the three different boys were often mixed up. The first two are to be found in the pedigree of Koheil III as well.
This also could be the reason behind the first Siglavy (the grey of Count Schwarzenberg) was renamed after this importation to differentiate every male line. First one called Gidran, second one Siglavy and last one Schwarzenberg.
The article is not very specific about the female lines at Babolna: “The broodmares are of Hungarian and Lipizzaner bred, all of them bred at Babolna or Mezohegyes. Only two mares are purebred Arabians”. From these two mares, we already know one as being Tifle. The other could also be out Von Fechtig’s Stud IMO. But remains a “mystery mare” to me right now.
I’m searching through pedigrees now for a very long time and it seems to me that everything that was bred in Hungary (and therefore a lot of polish Arabians) is messed up and can be called “doubtful blood for the pure bred Arabians”.
Correct me please if I see this wrong but I don’t trust Arabian breeds that traces back to Hungary. A lot of Polish bloodlines are going back to Hungary as well and therefore I don’t trust those bloodlines also.
French bloodlines are also doubtful to me. Such a shame if this is correct, because that means that there are not much real pure bred Arabians left…
World Champion RFI Farid goes back to Noniusz and other breeds as well.
I really like to talk about this, so please share your opinions with me…
Dear Moniek,
I am very sad to read your “verdict”.
There is only one thought I can agree with. ..”.there are not much real pure bred Arabians left ” but worldwide – I think….
However, we must not forget that the primary purpose of European horse imports was to produce good quality remount horses for the armies. With few exceptions, there were no plans to maintain purebred herds. Although stallions were imported mainly for breeding purposes, there were also mares….
May I ask what exactly is meant by ” ‘I have been browsing pedigrees for a very long time now”? How much time have you given yourself to get clear on this issue?
László from Hungary
I am so pleased these new sources are turning up. A treasure we will be exploring for many years, I am sure. And who knows what else may turn up?
RJ, when you’re reading, what else does this list tell us that we did not know alraedy from Von Wrangel and/or Hecker, other than Anaze went to France? also does it say anything new about Tifle and Gidran?
In that year Babolna had only 2 purebred arabian mare. Among
(74) Tifle the “mystery mare” was a real Nejdi (just like Tifle), called ( 14) El-Risch, a 7 year old, light bay (without markings). Her dam was ( an?) El-Risch too.
That would probably be a reference to the Rishan strain, plural al-Rishat or al-Riash.
Oh thank you very much Kiraly Laszlo! Do you know if 14 El-Risch left any progeny? And if she did, if it was ever exported?
Dear Amelie,
(14) El-Risch had three foals in Babolna. a son in 1824, Nedjdy (by Nedjdi Baba), again a son in 1826, Durzy ( by Durzy) and a daughter in 1828 by Durzy.
The first one, Nedjdy was sent in 1837 from Bábolna to Radautz, the other State Stud of the Habsburg Empire in the Bukowina.
László
The purebred Arabian program at Babolna goes back to the 1816 importation of the stallion Siglavy Gidran and the mare 74 Tifle. Their daughter 57 Anaze is the tail female line behind the Babolna sires Jussuf and Mehemed Ali (also stood at Weil), and Jussuf’s full sister 22 Mahmoud Mirza,
Of the ten stallions in the list above, only Siglavy Gidran and Anaze have asil descendants. In addition to the lines through Soldateska, Siglavy Gidran and Anaze are also found in the pedigrees of Siglavy Bagdady VI (1949), 25 Amurath Sahib (1952), and their daughter 3 Siglavy Bagdady VI.
Sorry, I omitted a generation. The daughter of Siglavy Gidran and 74 Tifle was 8 Gidran, and 8 Gidran’s daughter by Anaze was 57 Anaze.
74 Tifle did have a daughter by Anaze, but that was 74 Anaze, whose tail-female line is behind Dahoman III.
I tried to put together a list of Babolna’s earliest purebred Arabian broodmares:
74 Tifle 1810, imported 1816
46 Siglavy Resslesse c1818 (Siglavy x Resslesse)
14 El Risch, 1820, imported by 1824
8 Gidran 1823 (x 74 Tifle)
13 Siglavy 1825 (x 46 Siglavy Resslesse)
141 Djeida 1819, imported 1827
142 Chebba 1818, imported 1827
41 Hadba 1823 (Swety x Hadba), purchased 1829
47 Durzy 1827 (x 74 Tifle)
57 Anaze 1828 (x 8 Gidran)
74 Anaze 1829 (x 74 Tifle)
60 Anaze 1830 (x 8 Gidran)
17 Samhan 1833 (x 8 Gidran)
The cutoff is inexact. I should probably include the mares imported in 1836 by Baron Herbert, 151 Seria, Taese, 153 Faride, 154 Hamdanie, and 155 Hadbany.
Oh, and I count three purebred Arabian broodmares at Babolna in 1827, not two:
74 Tifle
14 El Risch
46 Siglavy Resslesse
Although the last one was bred at Lipizza. Maybe they meant two Arabian broodmares imported from the middle east.
You have right.There was a 3. purebred mare at that time, the grey 46 Siglavi Resslesse, who was born in Lipica and relocated to the other Imperial Stud, Babolna.Her sire was the Great Siglavi ( Schwarzenberg) and her dam an O.A mare.
Thank you very much R.J. and Laszlo! It will be very helpful to manage to track any of them in the French Stud-books if they (or their progeny) ever happened to be exported.
So Schwarzenberg was standing at Lipizza or Babolna at least til 1817 (or rather 1819?) and only stood at stud for Weil in 1820? He was back to Austro-Hungary in 1924 at last, wasn’t he? I really hope Gudrun’s book will be available in English as well. I can’t wait to read it!
I don’t think the famous Siglavy “Schwarzenberg” ever stood at Weil. Hamdany I was acquired by the Weil Stud through Babolna, and apparently she was bred to Siglavy at Babolna. Their filly Sady III was foaled in Ulm during transport to Weil. See here:
http://roster.alkhamsa.org/pedigrees/H/Hamdany_I_(WL)0000a.HTML
Siglavi “Schwarzenberg” was a fine, small (145 cm) grey arabian horse, who was born in 1810 in Syria, but imported from Egypt for Price Schwarzenberg’s private stud in the Steiermark ( Styria in english). Shortly thereafter, in 1814 bought him the Imperial Court,and stand in Vienna. First, in 1816. he was sent to the Imperial Stud in Koptschan,then to Lipizza in 1816. He founded there a sireline in the “Lippizaner” breed.
In 1820 he covered Hamdani I.(O:A:) of Weil. Presumebly the mare was sent to Siglavi Schwarzenberg. How i know, there is no record about it in Weil.The “fruit” of this pairing was the Sady III., who gave us as dam
the remarkable Amurath 1829.
In May 1822 sent the Court “Our hero” to the Imperial Stud in Mez?hegyes.I planned this year to look into the old Mez?hegyes Studbooks. There are many interesting informations, i think. Otherwise Siglaví Schwarzenberg was called “Siglaví I” in Mez?hegyes.
It should be mentioned, there was paralell in Babolna, Radautz and Mez?hegyes an other Siglaví stallion, called Siglavi IV.He was a bay horse,an original arab,born in 1819, who was bought in Constantinople.
“Schwarzenberg” played not a big role in Babolna’s pure arabian breeding program as a sire. In the Imperial Stud of Radautz sired also mostly halfbreeds.Otherwise, it was not necessary to change the standing place of the stallions. That time was a practice to send mares from one stud to the other, just like probably in the case of Hamdani I, the mare of His Majesty,the King of Wurttemberg.
Best wishes,
László
László, if you are going to look into the Mezoehegyes books, perhaps we should correspond? There are some gaps in publicly available pedigrees of WAHO-registered stock which could possibly be filled. And if you are able to look at the Babolna records, there are a few questions there, as well, which could probably be resolved from the Babolna records.
Here are some questions regarding Bábolna pedigrees:
1. Broodmare 61 Achmar (1849). Who is her dam, and what is the rest of the female side of her pedigree?
2. Broodmare 272 Gidran XXVIII (1863) produced in Bábolna an 1874 filly by Padischah. This filly later became a broodmare in Bábolna. What was the broodmare number for this __Padischah (1874)?
3. A stallion named Samhan (1853) was used in Bábolna in 1872 and 1873. Who was his dam? What is his pedigree?
4. There was born in Bábolna an 1837 colt samed Siglavy IV-2. Who was his dam?
I will make a separate post about the mares imported to France, but one of these is another Hamdanie, a bay, (bred by Von Fechtig in 1826). It would imply this mare was a grand-daughter of Hamdany I, the original desert-bred mare and that Von Fecthig having sold the grand-dam, kept one of her daughters at stud. It does match Von Fecthig’s interview in the Journal mentioning he would sell his older and renown horses since he had several young replacements for them. This mare could likely be a niece to Sady III. I notice the Frenches describe her maternal side as “from the Hamdanie family” not by Hamdany I herself ^^
R.J., I will going to Babolna with my old Hamdaniyat mare to the Halim Shah I.son, Nadeem B to “visit.Hopefully in this week.It will be possible to take a look into the old Studbooks. They are in an old strong,steel safe.I’m going to ask for the key 🙂
I will going to Mez?hegyes from the same reason in this yeartoo. This is my old dream.
If you have any questions about it, write me please. I will try to found answers them.
Best wishes,
László
László, that would be great! Regarding my four Bábolna questions, the two most important are 61 Achmar and Samhan (1853). The other two are of lesser interest if there is not time to pursue them.
R.J.,I will try to understand them
Sorry, iwould like to read “I will try to answer them”:)
I discovered recently that registration authorities now disagree about Padischah.
There was a stallion bred at Babolna named Jussuf (1885), a son of chief sire Jussuf (1869). This Jussuf (1885) stood at Slawuta/Chrestowka, where he sired, among others, Porta and Otawa. The pre-World War II Polish Arabian Stud Book (PASB) gives Jussuf (1885)’s dam as a Padischah mare (1874) out of a Gidran XXVIII mare (1863) out of a Gidran XVI mare out of a Young Muley mare. These mares were apparently 272 Gidran XXVIII, 743 Gidran XVI, and 102 Young Muley. But I have no broodmare number for the Padischah (1874) mare.
Now the rub: in contradiction to the PASB, the database of the International Shagya Society gives the dam of Jussuf (1885) as 73 Padischah 1874, who was a daughter of 19 Aghil Aga, out of 121 Koreischan.
So, the ISG and the PASB, both official registration authorities, give two different pedigrees for the dam of Jussuf (1885). I wonder, how many Padischah daughters foaled in 1874 became broodmares at Babolna? And is there any indication in Babolna records of which one produced an 1885 Jussuf colt sold to Slawuta/Chrestowka?
Regarding the mare Hamdanie, a bay, (bred by Von Fechtig in 1826), exported to France in 1833, the information I have (which may be wrong) records her as by El-Bedavy (El Bedavi) OA bay stallion 1821 and out of an OA mare called Hamdanie born circa 1815 who was also the dam of the full sibling Hamdan bay stallion born 1833 exported to France in 1843. So in this case it looks as if the names came from the dams and not the sires as was normally the case in Hungary.
what’s the source Kina?
R.J.,
the dam of the grey Siglavy IV-2 (was born in Bábolna in 1837) was the 46 Siglavy.
The sire of this Siglavy IV-2 was the bay desertbred Siglavy (born 1819) who was bought in Constantinople in 1825, and stayed as a stallion in Mez?hegyes under the name of Siglavy IV.
But (!) this colt of Siglavy IV received the number of S. IV-2 in Mez?hegyes in 1842-43 and he was called also in Mez?hegyes as a “Pepiniére” (stallion) Siglavy XXV (between 1845-1854)
small correction: Siglavy IV-2 received this name of course in Bábolna…
and Was used as sirehorse in 1842 – 1843 as Siglavy in Mezoehegyes ,then later as Siglavy XXV at the same place!!
We can find this same horse also under this “simple” name , “Siglavy” as the sire of the stallion “Siglavy XXXIV” ( born 1844) of Radautz too.( In 1843 “our” Siglavy IV-2 stand at Mezoehegyes!)
I am going to have to get a good database program!
These horses are mostly not pure bred Arabs, only some of them.But the pure ones played a precious role in the formation of todays Shagya, Gidran, Nonius,etc.etc. breeds of Hungary, Austria and other succession states of the former Austro-Hungarian Monarchy.
Dear Katrina, Thank you for your input. I have the same data about Hamdanie 1826, being bred by Von Fechtig in 1826 by El Bedavi. If she was out of the circa 1815 Hamdany then she was a daughter of Hamdany I and a half sister to Sady III. It would imply as Laszlo pointed out that the old Hamdany I was going back and forth between the Babolna and Lengyeltothy (Von Fecthtig) Studs at least until 1827. She might actually have been sold to the King of Wurtemberg in 1828 along with her older daughter Sady III. I will keep an eye on this 1833 Hamdani boy. I know of two stallions “Hamdani” who were imported in France; one born in 1835 and imported in 1842 (from Egypt) and one born in 1836 and imported around 1842/1843 (from Orient). So neither of them are matching here. Do you have the name of the french exporter?