Hm.
I thought about it a lot, what could be the reason for the “Most Classic Head” award?
Is it hard to imagine if an Arabian horse could ever have had such a head in the past.
The meaning of the word “classic” somewhere should also mean something traditional that appears in perfect form.
Or I’m not right and could such an extreme look ever be typical?
What horse is this? I do know there was a mare with a face like this making the rounds as an example of “oh my god what has become of Arabian breeding??!!!” who was actually an unintentional genetic mutation. I’m not able to find the actual source of the picture anymore only the drama.
I’m not saying there aren’t issues with modern halter Arabian breeding, but their heads seems to be mostly pretty straight, with some a bit more seahorse like — but not this. This….is far from the norm of what seems desirable in the halter ring. I do think these new show Arabians should perhaps be given a new name, like Modern Arabian or something similar, as they are developing a distinct “look”…. But again, it’s not this. Not for the majority at least.
Also, when you see a picture like this, don’t panic. Do some research for sources before passing it on. All “seahorse” examples I found look more “normal” in other pictures.
This looks like the mare that had an umbilical chord around her nose in the womb. In that case, it wasn’t bred intentionally but it certainly is not the norm regardless. I am just saying something because if we are going to complain we need to be sure it’s accurate, and not a picture of an awkward, undeveloped foal, or horse deformed in the womb. That poor mare is still making rounds as an example of something she is not.
how old is this horse ? If this horse is still young the head will change over time. Do you have a whole body shot of this young horse ? And what is the pedigree ? Colt or filly ?
Oh. Do tell my friends. Do tell.
As some supposed potential show horses , and such hopefuls, do age, they do change their appearances. Oh. You all do know this all too well. And some do change to actually look like Jallal. Or different, than before. You people are just too impatient these days… What looks good to some , today, may does look like something else after a few years.
This appears to be a young horse, still…..
So what is the pedigree on this one ? Let the rest of us spectator see something here. Get busy people ? This is going to be fun to see.
I went into allbreedpedigree and did misspell the name as being Namuska. Then I changed it to Namusca. Upon looking at the picture of a matured mare I must say this is obviously a defct which must have happened before birth. Upper snout pulled back-and upwards, still. And so on. There is a bulge under her lower jawline. Which suggests, that even her lower tooth line must have been moved while in utero. The upper nose and upper bone segments of her lower nose bone does look like it had been constricted. Which also does look like her entire upper front row of upper front teeth line had been as if pulled upwards.
Quick-check:
Progeny: eight foals. Two geldings.
Matings to: Magnum Psyche
Nobles Gallaleo. Winsome Akura 3 x`s, RV Rostov 3 x `s. .
I missed one ?
Mare was born 1984 Only some of her foals have been bred onwards. She produced two geldings. One, or two others have brought their offspring. Which had been bred onwards. Stopped there. One was bred into what appeared to be mixed. Including Saddlebred horses.
What is the excitement ? She was , supposedly by Nariadni x Musca 2. Salon in the pedigree. There is no way a stallion like Nariadni or Salon could have brought forth something like this. Unless this had been natures way for a defect in this specimen on the topic here.
I saw Salon once. There is no way. I used to see a lot of the old horses. And different types.
And sometimes nature does play tricks like this. Including withered ears. or something. Which is not touching the subject of line breeding. Or todays fabled adage of incestuous breeding practices. Old horses….. and horses of the past tense. Most of them extinct. And for a very good reason. Sorry . This is from the Peanut Galleries. And not for Experts.
Continue to disagree. Be my guest. SMILE
Sixty and going.
I’m pretty sure that this beauty is the 2014 straight Egyptian mare, Fanaticaa, sired by *Al Raheb AA (*Laheeb IASB x The Vision HG) and out Faleenah El Masr (EAI Silvereen by Safeen x HAF Roufatta). Her head has continued to evolve and dry out, as she ages, meaning it looks less extreme than how her head appears in this photo. Bred by Raymond Mazzei, who has been around for a long time, she has matured into a breathtaking white mare and through her beauty and character, has brought new people to the breed.
If this is Fanaticaa, and not Namusica, and thus a head that was deliberately bred for, I am aghast. This head is in no way correct for any breed of horse because of the health issues it poses.
The jaw appears slightly undershot, which would make the horse’s teeth not properly aligned. Her cheek should be the deepest part of her lower mandible, as the big chewing muscles attach there, but it is not; I am presuming, though, that the bumps on the lower jaw are erupting teeth.
The extreme drop-off of the nasal bone also greatly reduces the space available for the sinus cavities and the upper teeth, as horses obviously have very long permanent teeth. This means that the likelihood of sinus issues and dentition issues is greatly increased.
This mare’s head, if deliberately bred for, is shocking and unfair to the poor horse. Her skull looks more like that of a brachycephalic dog than it does a typical, healthy horse, and I think that most people are by now aware of the issues presented by brachycephaly in dogs and cats both – not just the breathing problems and malocclusion I’ve already mentioned, but also issues such as hydrocephaly, where fluid builds up on the brain because there is not enough space in the shortened skull, and exophthalmos,i.e. protuberant eyes caused by a shallow eye socket.
It is not ok to deliberately select for a head this extreme. It is not healthy. It leads to serious health issues. Forget standards, think about the welfare of the horses. If we love them, surely we do not want them to be in permanent discomfort because we have chosen to breed heritable abnormalities into them – and if we continue down this path with selecting more and more extreme heads on Arabian horses, we will inevitably produce horses that live a life of permanent suffering, struggling to breath, with inflamed corneas, with headaches. If we love the horses, we have to recognise that the pursuit of the extreme means the horse pays a terrible physical price.
Yes, this is Fanaticaa. HERE is a video of her as a 6 year old, in 2020, in case anyone wants to say that it’s just the foal photos. No amount of drying out of the face with age is going to fix the fact that she’s quite literally been bred with a large dent in her face, with the nostrils shifted forward and down to the very front of her muzzle, the jawline shifted entirely into an inverted banana shape to allow for the aforementioned dent in her face, which narrows the breadth of the jaw entirely as well as creates the tiny tea cup muzzles we are seeing in these horses.
The combination of breeding for ‘typey’ dishes, smaller muzzles, shallower jaws, and in addition to the trend of seeking out longer mitbahs, has given us horses that look like their head ought to attach and function like the Mattel Barbie Horse Dancer.
If anyone posting comments about Fanaticaa were a vet, specializing in respiratory issues AND happened to have also examined Fanaticaa in person, then the comments would carry far more weight than they do. The comments are no more than assumptions made from a photo, by non-medical people. Either you like the mare or you don’t, no big deal. But don’t post the mare’s photo on the internet and invite people to post negative opinions of her. That is unfair to the mare, her breeder and the people who own her.
No one has said that Fanaticaa herself has health issues. I have simply pointed out anatomical facts, which anyone who has seen an equine skull would be aware of: a depressed nasal bone leaves less room for the teeth and sinuses to share. If you have read any medical journals on brachycephaly in cats and dogs, you will know that it has undesirable comorbidities that have a negative effect on the animals’ health. We cannot magic away basic facts of anatomy by casting aspersions on people’s qualifications.
Moreover, none of the commenters knew who the mare was until you named her yourself. You will notice that a number of us thought she was Namusca instead, whose head was an accident and an abnormality. Moira makes a very good point below, which is that if a horse is confused with Namusca, then we need to question WHY breeding choices are made to deliberately select a look that is similar to a congenital abnormality.
Either we stand up for the long-term welfare of the breed, or we say nothing and let heads become more extreme and suffering become inevitable. Fanaticaa may not have any health issues herself, but at some point down the line, this trend in head shape is going to lead to problems. And then what? Do we see legislation passed forbidden the breeding of horses with extreme heads, as has happened in a number of countries for brachycephalic dogs and cats? Is that really the future we want, where governments have to intervene to ensure that the horses don’t suffer?
Thank you for the Easter wishes; I hope you also had a good Easter weekend.
Thank you also for sharing the article. I think, after reading it, we are coming at this from diametrically opposed views on horses. Winning halter classes at three means nothing to me in terms of the qualities I like to see in horses, while clearly it matters to you and to the mare’s breeder.
I would be interested to know if the mare has gone on to have a career under saddle, testing the Arabian qualities of athleticism, rideability, agility and endurance. For me, those are qualities I appreciate, as they demonstrate that the horse is sound of body and sound of mind, able to hold up to hard physical work. In-hand classes are a useful way for a horse to get its feet wet in the world of competition, but – for me – that is where their utility ends.
There is certainly something to be said for the fact that this mare has been mistaken for Namusca, who does in fact have a severe facial deformity, when the mare is not Namusca and in fact was bred like this and has quite a number of family members that look like this.
Someone earlier said that the horses didn’t actually look like ‘this’ in other photos or in the flesh, which always begs the question: why is that the image that’s put out there; why is that the image that is used to promote these horses; why is that put forth as something aspirational?
yes. …. BINGO: to think outside of that box…. thank you.
I keep on readin ` `tis thang , folks. Hey-hey… Ride on cowboys and cow girls ? SMILE
Agreeing on some parts. Then again, not.
I see some people being jealous enough…. eat your hearts out. So smart – a – texts. Impressive enough . To say the least.
I’m a lurker here, very seldom have a comment to make and really don’t have anything useful or constructive to add but I keep returning to this post to see what comments are being made as I also find the appreciation for this kind of head to be “madness” – can’t help but think how odd it would be to see a Bedouin warrior sat astride a horse that looked like this. It saddens me to see it being considered so desirable.
Oh, do please join the conversation – the more voices the better, as hearing different view points is always interesting. I am sure you have many more constructive things to say than you think.
Have you seen photos of the mare *Abeyah? She was one of the horses imported by Homer Davenport from the desert, and in his book he writes that her “head was considered by the Bedouins the most perfect of the Anazeh”. What we see winning in halter classes now is a far cry from *Abeyah.
For God’s sake to the breeders of this horse , you’ve made this line of asthetics look like a dwarf head on a full size body !. It’s lost it’s forward moving appearance good God ,it looks like it stubbed it’s nose real hard , deformed horses is not where breeding should be taking this gorgeous horse as an American Arabian example , the rest of the world is probably laughing at what is happening here and or angry , this really should not be acceptable in the show ring .
Hm.
I thought about it a lot, what could be the reason for the “Most Classic Head” award?
Is it hard to imagine if an Arabian horse could ever have had such a head in the past.
The meaning of the word “classic” somewhere should also mean something traditional that appears in perfect form.
Or I’m not right and could such an extreme look ever be typical?
Best wishes,
László
“It’s a no from me” to copy you, Wilton.
This is not the head of a horse, Arabian or not. This is a cartoon from “My little Pony”
What horse is this? I do know there was a mare with a face like this making the rounds as an example of “oh my god what has become of Arabian breeding??!!!” who was actually an unintentional genetic mutation. I’m not able to find the actual source of the picture anymore only the drama.
I’m not saying there aren’t issues with modern halter Arabian breeding, but their heads seems to be mostly pretty straight, with some a bit more seahorse like — but not this. This….is far from the norm of what seems desirable in the halter ring. I do think these new show Arabians should perhaps be given a new name, like Modern Arabian or something similar, as they are developing a distinct “look”…. But again, it’s not this. Not for the majority at least.
Also, when you see a picture like this, don’t panic. Do some research for sources before passing it on. All “seahorse” examples I found look more “normal” in other pictures.
Deformed “fiddle head”. Sad.
This looks like the mare that had an umbilical chord around her nose in the womb. In that case, it wasn’t bred intentionally but it certainly is not the norm regardless. I am just saying something because if we are going to complain we need to be sure it’s accurate, and not a picture of an awkward, undeveloped foal, or horse deformed in the womb. That poor mare is still making rounds as an example of something she is not.
how old is this horse ? If this horse is still young the head will change over time. Do you have a whole body shot of this young horse ? And what is the pedigree ? Colt or filly ?
Oh. Do tell my friends. Do tell.
As some supposed potential show horses , and such hopefuls, do age, they do change their appearances. Oh. You all do know this all too well. And some do change to actually look like Jallal. Or different, than before. You people are just too impatient these days… What looks good to some , today, may does look like something else after a few years.
This appears to be a young horse, still…..
So what is the pedigree on this one ? Let the rest of us spectator see something here. Get busy people ? This is going to be fun to see.
That poor thing!
So Edouard: Do you know if the horse was surgically altered? I’m serious as a heart attack, cuz this is way beyond banana head.
best
Bruce Peek
Bruce, I think this is Namusca, whose head was supposed to be the result of a leg lying across it in utero.
Hi there :
I went into allbreedpedigree and did misspell the name as being Namuska. Then I changed it to Namusca. Upon looking at the picture of a matured mare I must say this is obviously a defct which must have happened before birth. Upper snout pulled back-and upwards, still. And so on. There is a bulge under her lower jawline. Which suggests, that even her lower tooth line must have been moved while in utero. The upper nose and upper bone segments of her lower nose bone does look like it had been constricted. Which also does look like her entire upper front row of upper front teeth line had been as if pulled upwards.
Quick-check:
Progeny: eight foals. Two geldings.
Matings to: Magnum Psyche
Nobles Gallaleo. Winsome Akura 3 x`s, RV Rostov 3 x `s. .
I missed one ?
Mare was born 1984 Only some of her foals have been bred onwards. She produced two geldings. One, or two others have brought their offspring. Which had been bred onwards. Stopped there. One was bred into what appeared to be mixed. Including Saddlebred horses.
What is the excitement ? She was , supposedly by Nariadni x Musca 2. Salon in the pedigree. There is no way a stallion like Nariadni or Salon could have brought forth something like this. Unless this had been natures way for a defect in this specimen on the topic here.
I saw Salon once. There is no way. I used to see a lot of the old horses. And different types.
And sometimes nature does play tricks like this. Including withered ears. or something. Which is not touching the subject of line breeding. Or todays fabled adage of incestuous breeding practices. Old horses….. and horses of the past tense. Most of them extinct. And for a very good reason. Sorry . This is from the Peanut Galleries. And not for Experts.
Continue to disagree. Be my guest. SMILE
Sixty and going.
from an old fart
I’m pretty sure that this beauty is the 2014 straight Egyptian mare, Fanaticaa, sired by *Al Raheb AA (*Laheeb IASB x The Vision HG) and out Faleenah El Masr (EAI Silvereen by Safeen x HAF Roufatta). Her head has continued to evolve and dry out, as she ages, meaning it looks less extreme than how her head appears in this photo. Bred by Raymond Mazzei, who has been around for a long time, she has matured into a breathtaking white mare and through her beauty and character, has brought new people to the breed.
Whoops! Meant to add that her tail female line runs to Henry Babson’s *Maaroufa (Ibn Rabdan x Mahroussa)
Pedigree: https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/fanaticaa
There’s additional Babson blood in the pedigree through horses bred by Jane Ekhern Ott, Albert Guilbaux and Jay Stream (Al Nahr).
If this is Fanaticaa, and not Namusica, and thus a head that was deliberately bred for, I am aghast. This head is in no way correct for any breed of horse because of the health issues it poses.
The jaw appears slightly undershot, which would make the horse’s teeth not properly aligned. Her cheek should be the deepest part of her lower mandible, as the big chewing muscles attach there, but it is not; I am presuming, though, that the bumps on the lower jaw are erupting teeth.
The extreme drop-off of the nasal bone also greatly reduces the space available for the sinus cavities and the upper teeth, as horses obviously have very long permanent teeth. This means that the likelihood of sinus issues and dentition issues is greatly increased.
This mare’s head, if deliberately bred for, is shocking and unfair to the poor horse. Her skull looks more like that of a brachycephalic dog than it does a typical, healthy horse, and I think that most people are by now aware of the issues presented by brachycephaly in dogs and cats both – not just the breathing problems and malocclusion I’ve already mentioned, but also issues such as hydrocephaly, where fluid builds up on the brain because there is not enough space in the shortened skull, and exophthalmos,i.e. protuberant eyes caused by a shallow eye socket.
It is not ok to deliberately select for a head this extreme. It is not healthy. It leads to serious health issues. Forget standards, think about the welfare of the horses. If we love them, surely we do not want them to be in permanent discomfort because we have chosen to breed heritable abnormalities into them – and if we continue down this path with selecting more and more extreme heads on Arabian horses, we will inevitably produce horses that live a life of permanent suffering, struggling to breath, with inflamed corneas, with headaches. If we love the horses, we have to recognise that the pursuit of the extreme means the horse pays a terrible physical price.
So the question is – do we love the horses?
Yes, this is Fanaticaa. HERE is a video of her as a 6 year old, in 2020, in case anyone wants to say that it’s just the foal photos. No amount of drying out of the face with age is going to fix the fact that she’s quite literally been bred with a large dent in her face, with the nostrils shifted forward and down to the very front of her muzzle, the jawline shifted entirely into an inverted banana shape to allow for the aforementioned dent in her face, which narrows the breadth of the jaw entirely as well as creates the tiny tea cup muzzles we are seeing in these horses.
The combination of breeding for ‘typey’ dishes, smaller muzzles, shallower jaws, and in addition to the trend of seeking out longer mitbahs, has given us horses that look like their head ought to attach and function like the Mattel Barbie Horse Dancer.
Ralph, come on. Regardless of who the horse is, who is belongs to, who bred it, and what horses it traces to, this is not okay. It’s gone too far.
If anyone posting comments about Fanaticaa were a vet, specializing in respiratory issues AND happened to have also examined Fanaticaa in person, then the comments would carry far more weight than they do. The comments are no more than assumptions made from a photo, by non-medical people. Either you like the mare or you don’t, no big deal. But don’t post the mare’s photo on the internet and invite people to post negative opinions of her. That is unfair to the mare, her breeder and the people who own her.
No one has said that Fanaticaa herself has health issues. I have simply pointed out anatomical facts, which anyone who has seen an equine skull would be aware of: a depressed nasal bone leaves less room for the teeth and sinuses to share. If you have read any medical journals on brachycephaly in cats and dogs, you will know that it has undesirable comorbidities that have a negative effect on the animals’ health. We cannot magic away basic facts of anatomy by casting aspersions on people’s qualifications.
Moreover, none of the commenters knew who the mare was until you named her yourself. You will notice that a number of us thought she was Namusca instead, whose head was an accident and an abnormality. Moira makes a very good point below, which is that if a horse is confused with Namusca, then we need to question WHY breeding choices are made to deliberately select a look that is similar to a congenital abnormality.
Either we stand up for the long-term welfare of the breed, or we say nothing and let heads become more extreme and suffering become inevitable. Fanaticaa may not have any health issues herself, but at some point down the line, this trend in head shape is going to lead to problems. And then what? Do we see legislation passed forbidden the breeding of horses with extreme heads, as has happened in a number of countries for brachycephalic dogs and cats? Is that really the future we want, where governments have to intervene to ensure that the horses don’t suffer?
Happy Easter Kate (and everyone else reading)!
Thought you would enjoy the following article (if you haven’t already):
https://arabianhorseworld.com/a-breeders-thoughts-on-fanaticaa-raymond-mazzei-speaks/
Thank you for the Easter wishes; I hope you also had a good Easter weekend.
Thank you also for sharing the article. I think, after reading it, we are coming at this from diametrically opposed views on horses. Winning halter classes at three means nothing to me in terms of the qualities I like to see in horses, while clearly it matters to you and to the mare’s breeder.
I would be interested to know if the mare has gone on to have a career under saddle, testing the Arabian qualities of athleticism, rideability, agility and endurance. For me, those are qualities I appreciate, as they demonstrate that the horse is sound of body and sound of mind, able to hold up to hard physical work. In-hand classes are a useful way for a horse to get its feet wet in the world of competition, but – for me – that is where their utility ends.
There is certainly something to be said for the fact that this mare has been mistaken for Namusca, who does in fact have a severe facial deformity, when the mare is not Namusca and in fact was bred like this and has quite a number of family members that look like this.
Someone earlier said that the horses didn’t actually look like ‘this’ in other photos or in the flesh, which always begs the question: why is that the image that’s put out there; why is that the image that is used to promote these horses; why is that put forth as something aspirational?
Ralf Suarez:
yes. …. BINGO: to think outside of that box…. thank you.
I keep on readin ` `tis thang , folks. Hey-hey… Ride on cowboys and cow girls ? SMILE
Agreeing on some parts. Then again, not.
I see some people being jealous enough…. eat your hearts out. So smart – a – texts. Impressive enough . To say the least.
I’m a lurker here, very seldom have a comment to make and really don’t have anything useful or constructive to add but I keep returning to this post to see what comments are being made as I also find the appreciation for this kind of head to be “madness” – can’t help but think how odd it would be to see a Bedouin warrior sat astride a horse that looked like this. It saddens me to see it being considered so desirable.
Oh, do please join the conversation – the more voices the better, as hearing different view points is always interesting. I am sure you have many more constructive things to say than you think.
Have you seen photos of the mare *Abeyah? She was one of the horses imported by Homer Davenport from the desert, and in his book he writes that her “head was considered by the Bedouins the most perfect of the Anazeh”. What we see winning in halter classes now is a far cry from *Abeyah.
For God’s sake to the breeders of this horse , you’ve made this line of asthetics look like a dwarf head on a full size body !. It’s lost it’s forward moving appearance good God ,it looks like it stubbed it’s nose real hard , deformed horses is not where breeding should be taking this gorgeous horse as an American Arabian example , the rest of the world is probably laughing at what is happening here and or angry , this really should not be acceptable in the show ring .
It’s gotten even worse in the rest of the world Joseph.