Skowronek.io is now public
After a long delay I am happy to announce that www.skowronek.io is now public. 95% of the key documents prior to 1921 along with full translations are available for all to view. More analysis of the documents will follow this year roughly following this post. Once this is complete I will move forward to the story post 1921.
J’espère que l’on aura des preuves réelles d’ascendance non arabe autrement que par absence de preuves, manque d’information ou interprétations spéculatives ou parce que la transcription des stud-books aura eu lien à la va vite dans des périodes troublées avec des noms mal orthographiés ou parce qu’avec un nom commun comme POLKA on se sera cru obligé d’appliquer arbitrairement celui que l’on considère être le bon si possible un homonyme contemporain ! ou parce que selon un principe bédouin et pas seulement bédouin mais aussi chez les princes Polonais et Hongrois on considère qu’un arabe élevé hors du berceau de race n’est plus un arabe ! (à coté de cela il est relaté que les bédouins savaient utiliser comme étalon un cheval valeureux, célèbre, d’un haut degré de Sang sans tenir compte spécialement de son origine) ou parce que comme disait Pure Man sans parler des Managi des Darjani ou des arabes du pays de Sham qu’il considérait impures “les Saklaoui Jadrani Ibn Marighi ne seraient pas purs dixit un des frères Ruwala ! (ce qui toucherait la quasi totalité des chevaux arabes à l’heure atuelle !…)
I took a quick look. Very interesting and well presented.
Arnault, concernant Skowonek, bon nombre de ses ascendants (si mes souvenirs sont bons, quasiment une vingtaine sont répertoriés comme non arabes ou d’ascendance inconnue) étaient inscrits dans le livre II du studbook russe (en gros les chevaux importés dont on avait aucune information, y compris des chevaux capturés face à l’armée ottomane en Hongrie par exemple, et les chevaux fortement imprégnés de sang arabe sans l’être). Les 2 livres fusionneront ultérieurement, un peu comme si on intégrait les DSA au stud-book arabe. Les bédouins ne tenaient pas compte des pedigrees comme on l’entend nous, on est d’accord, mais la pureté était le principal argument, et le suivant était la célébrité et la valeur de l’étalon. Qu’après, tous les bédouins ne détiennent pas la vérité absolue, on s’en doute un peu, de la même façon qu’on se doute aussi que des occidentaux aient pu mal interpréter, ou se méprendre sur certains dires des bédouins. D’où la nécessité de croiser les sources.
Dans l’absolu, nous sommes tous 2 d’accord sur l’idée de retrempe, que je juge autant nécessaire. Après on peut se poser les question suivante: le biotope et la façon occidentale d’élever ont t’ils plus d’influence sur un cheval dont le % de sang arabe est inférieur à 100% comparativement à un cheval dit “asil”? Est-ce qu’un cheval asil est mieux armé pour transmettre la race qu’un cheval qui ne l’est pas? En sachant bien évidemment sur si la retrempe est nécessaire, si ce n’est indispensable, on sait tous que malheureusement, il sera difficile d’y avoir accès à chaque génération… à charge pour les éleveurs de ne pas perdre ses bénéfices avant d’y avoir accès de nouveau
This is a topic that proves that we cannot be “perfect” with the horses we have. We have to research and publish and select as best we can.
My husband and I tried to preserve the horses of Homer Davenport, and hoped that, as best we could, our horses would be recognized as the same as when they left the tribes they came from over 100 years ago.
That is all we could do.
If someone from a tribe from elsewhere does not recognize those tribes that have migrated from northern Arabia to northern Syria through the Hamad, then we can’t do anything about that.
Those same tribes furnished horses to Babolna and Weil, to Abbas Pasha and the Blunts. We have to preserve what we have, and document it as well as it can be done.
I am glad Lyman’s website is now public. There are many documents there that it is important to preserve.
I hope every one doing ok and special respect to ms craver
No human being on this planet ever is perfect even prophets
The Bedouin bred these horses for function and survival of the harsh conditions
They did not remember when they were born and did not have names to each but they remembered them by their parents blood lines and did not go very far in their pedigrees more than the grand sire and grand dam unless it was a very famous horse known to everyone
As far as asil horses go the Quran mentioned them and they were linked to prophet Solomon
And as far history books go the Arabs started blood lines linked to the sire but am not sure when did they start using the maternal blood lines
When u look at the way the Arabs at the time of early Islam ihow they identified horses not mixed with neighboring countries horses was very random and depends on horses guys who are expert and knew pedigrees but they are humans as well and archive records apart from books gives an idea how they were thinking about their horses
One of the way was to see the horse bend his knee if drinking of the ground will not be pure this was a famous story but god knows if true
But they had rules they followed and until recently if u look to buy a horse from the desert tribes then u will look for the best tribes and their noble men and buy ur horse blindfolded you know it is going to be good
Not every tribe will recognize the other tribes horses but will never talk badly about anything did not know
Every tribe was proud of what they had and really did not care until they gains an outside horse and the search will start
Ibn grab only cared about his hamdani and took good care of them and did not care of having another strain but only had full respect to hamdani efri and never talked bad about them in fact he said they are better than his
Davenport followed that and he did his work very well done and followed the roles of the guy who knew what he was doing
Abbas pasha did his work and followed that role a famous blood line from a noble desert man
Lady Ann did and so did many people
The moral is there is not a single test can prove a blood line and shows what happened. We have to preserve what we have the way Bedouin did by loving what we have and breed them to be functional desert horses and trust who passed them to us and appreciate the effort
Without the craver I would not have had the Haifi line which every time I look at them my heart start beating fast and ooze with love and respect and answer to Edourd about a stallion of his dream I will say I have four of them
Without Davenport the craver would not have had the pleasure of theses horses and without the fadaan tribe we would not have had them
I agree with ms craver enjoy theses horses and love on them and treat them as horses not a paper with scribbles on it other people think the world of their horse and Bedouin will never talk bad or make other people hate their horses and only god know what really happen there is alway two side to one story
Pass them on to another generation and this is my humble opinion and this what I learned from watching my people doing and try to teach my kids to do the same when they get the haifi from me
I hope I have not offended anyone and this only reflect what I have decided from early days how to take care of horses and pass them on
God bless all y’all and your Arab horses
Hazaim
First question would be : how comes there is such a difference in pedigrees for Lira (https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/lira3) between the actual 1903 Russian Studbook and the reference source everybody is talking about (aka The Arabian Horse Families of Poland 1790-1987 By Britta Fahlgren)?
Anybody more into the Polish bloodlines to explain us?
Amelie-
So Britta Fahlgrens info is based on Polish stud books. What exactly the Russian stud book says is not clear but sometimes it is different than Polish sources. I suggest you post this comment under Lira here.
You would also be the first person to comment on the site!
Lyman
I am quite ok with you doctor HAZAIM and may peace with you and all horses arabian breeders.
I completely agree with Dr.Hazaim,peace be upon you and all Arabian horse breeders
Dr. Hazaim, thank you so much for your thoughtful comments. I appreciate them for the history you referenced, and for Charles and the horses we had together. Thank you again!
Hazaim, Jeanne,
That’s all fine and good, but I beg to differ on one point: the whole point of Bedouin (and by extention, Arab) selection was to separate the authentic horse from the hajeen.
All the people Hazaim referenced from AP to LAB took great care and went to great lenght to weed out every trace of unascertained blood from their studs. The AP Manuscript dedicates about 100 pages of the K. Nowak chapter to uncover the lies of a single man about the origin of his marbat.
The research of Lyman is doing the same, based on facts and primary sources. It is uncovering a century of cover-ups and falsehoods.
I agree with you Dr Hazaim. These are words coming from a true lover of Arabian horses and are so full of accuracy and intelligence. Thanks to you. One sentence reminds me what Robert Mauvy, who lived with bedouins for a part of his life, was saying : “Bedouins are illiterate, they knew their horses by their parents blood lines or grand parents.”
But so many people are so in a hurry to discredit the purity of one horse or one other based on rumors, “on dit” in french, writings that generaly are not well understood or well translated or worst when a sentence for example is isolated from the others. Arabian horses have never been bred by pseudo-historians.
The last fashion way to discredit the purity of a horse is to use DNA (by Y chromosome or mtDNA). This is so fun to read comments on these types of scientific articles. Each person want to say something and to use these researchs to explain that a horse is not pure blood (it was for example the case for Amer if I remember well, and even if this horse was not examined in the paper !). How to say that we can’t conclude anything for the putative purity, principaly due to the fact that we do not have access to original DNA or mtDNA coming from the ancestors. Furthemore mutations could arise between generations.
We can only try to do the best for our loved Arabian horses. For westerners like us, we can try to keep them closer to what they were and what they are in original countries by using, for example, fresh imported Arabien horses from these countries.
Guillaume, the non-Arabian blood in Skowronek and the Polish horses is not “on-dit”. The root mares were not Arabian, they were local polish mares bred to Arabian stallions for many generations.
If that Polish blood was so clean, why did Mauvy stay away from it? Why did he got back to short lines from the desert? Why did his book celebrate Sumeyr and Ourour and Iricho and Irmak, but not Baj or Elaborat or Badr Bedur who were around in the same French government studs at the same time? Why did he not celebrate Ba-Toustem and Saint Laurent? Why did he get rid of the horses he had to breed to Ba-Toustem (e.g., Mouradallah), so that he could maitain the ones from the real lines.
When Hazaim asked me to pick horses for his herd, he did not ask me to pick Polish horses. He specifically told me: “I want them to be purest of the purest of the pure, all lines from the desert, all lines with hujjahs, not one horse in the pedigree with the slightest doubt”. He was so much into this purity criterion that he even turned away from a specific strain within Davenports (the lines from Schilla) because of a possible switch within Davenports a hundred years ago, which was revealed by the mtDNA you are criticizing.
Please Edouard,
You already know by a previous post that Mauvy told to Louis Bauduin to use Amdan (this horse has a part of polish horse in his pedigree) to cover Hamada, the mare he gave him. It is not because he did not want to put forward Baj or any other horse with polish pedigree than he did not believe in Amdan. This is again a negative demonstration and a speculation. Why don’t we use actual Egyptian horses, for example, even if some say they are the purests ?
Regarding the use of horses closest to the desert line, is not what I said and what we do ?
For what Lyman Doyle published, I read some articles previously and it is what I said above, sometimes people did not read writings as they are (uncompletely or biased). I can detailled but it will be really long here. The “on dit” is more linked to “saillies de minuit”. And of course it is “on dit” because people that spread the information were not there during the mate ! It is the same for one syrian mare you have a doubt, however it has a hujjah ! So sometimes hujjah is the best proof of purity but sometimes not ? You never told me where come from your doubt for this mare. Re read what Mauvy wrote about Hujjah in his book.
So, I prefer to trust someone like Mauvy than pseudo historians. At the time you are talking for polish horses it existed a lot of Polka, probably the same for Szumska. How can we really know exactly what hapenned ? We can only make some assumptions, trust or not the books or someone. Please do not say this horse for sure is pure, this other of course not. No one can prove the purity of a horse, this is really impossible. Furthermore it is not because at that time they use some polish horses that these were not pure ! I am quite sure they said polish horse as we can say now egyptian or french or american horse. It does not mean that they are not pure !
And for mtDNA analysis, you continue to say that it proved something, so please explain me because it seems I am not an expert. I already explained you by private mail why we cannot trust these analysis to prove the purity. You prefer to believe someone else, I don’t know who, maybe even if the person is not a scientist…
This is your choice, the same choice you use to discredit without any doubt a horse.
How can we have no doubt ?
Guillaume-
You are right. We were not there during the mating, but the Sanguszkos were. It is very well documented in Russian and Polish. Here is what Roman Sanguszko Sr. wrote about the topics you mentioned above in 1876 which is available here:
http://skowronek.io/sources/prince-sanguszkos-stud-farm-1876/
1. From 1800 to 1872 a total of 62 oriental and Arabian horses were imported, consisting of 55 stallions and 7 mares. From this information we can see that the improvement of the Sanguszko horses was primarily done through importing stallions instead of mares. The first mare imported by the Sanguszko’s was in 1818. Consequently, horses bred prior to this date must have originated from a motley blend of non-Arabian mares as described below.
2.The enrichment of the horses bred by the Sanguszko family with so called Eastern, Arab or Oriental blood started under the management of Prince Roman Sr’s grandfather, Prince Hieronim when the nobleman Burski was sent on a buying expedition to Arabia from 1800-1803.
3. Prince Roman describes and gives details from a Chrestówka stud report from 1799 signed by Rybiski to illustrate the type of mixed blood horses present in their family herd prior to Burski’s buying expedition. After summarizing the report he concludes: “such details are very precious to history, as they give evidence on which we can base our opinions and theories about the happenings of the herd about which we are writing. It shows that the herds of great landowners of the times were often mixed and led without any thought.” He continues, “there was no clear direction in the systematic leading of the herd; everything was achieved by chance, as seen from the collection of stallions and mares cited above. There was no race in the herd collected from all kinds of sub-par sources – such as Starzyski, Pruszyski, and the like. Therefore we come to the conclusion, that all small and larger herds in Ukraine and the Wolyn region had no value in terms of race; but only in terms of local horses, and they appeared from the necessity of keeping horses to defend the lands, and through the appropriateness of surrounding areas for pastures, they had risen to quite a high level.” The 1799 stud report is available here:
http://skowronek.io/sources/stable-report-1799/
4. Szwieykowska, a potential ancestress of Skowronek, is specifically mentioned in the author’s review of the Rybinski 1799 stud report. Prince Roman explains she is named after the person and place from where she came. Szwieykowska is a Polish surname that survives to the present day. She was not an Arab horse.
5. The origin of Szumka II, a Skowronek ancestor, is described by the Prince this way: “The black Szumka II was the one that stood out the most from the Hajlan progeny, he came from the mare Polka. Polka was not a pure Arabian mare; her sire was of a cherry-bay coat and bought in Vienna, Austria around the year 1790. It is even said that Prince Eustachy won the right to buy it by his brave and artful riding of it, as it was a very insidious horse.” Polka’s sire was not Arabian. Prince Eustachy purchased Polka’s unnamed sire in Vienna around 1790 when Eustachy was in his early 20s.
Another point of confusion is that Skowronek was NOT a Polish horse. He was Russian. His dam is listed in section 2 of the 1903 Russian Arabian Stud Book. Available here:
http://skowronek.io/sources/stud-book-of-arabian-horses-with-their-pedigrees-present-in-russia-1903/
I was told a fun story lately.
A guy had a donkey who had never seen electric fences before.
Right after his purchase the donkey tries to cross the fence but of course he gets a small electric shock. So learns not to try to cross it and stay in his pasture.
And they live happily together for years.
But one day there is a terrible storm and the fence goes down.
The guy runs to the pasture for fear the donkey has escaped and run away.
But he was just grazing right next to the fence and was followed his human without any problem straight back into his “safe and comfortable” pasture.
We has human do the very same. We stay away from stepping out of our precious believes for fear of the “unknown”.
I am afraid of this “new info” because omg it’s new and it makes me cross the fence and i don’t know what to expect.
So no matter what you say i will never agree or follow you.
People don’t believe in genetics, people don’t believe in historical discoveries.
Some people are even still convinced the earth is flat.
Step out of your comfort zone…no one is going to beat you Guillaume.
You might even realize your horses still are horses even if not Asil (which by the way does not mean pure in the way we do understand it…but Edouard has already many entries about this in his blog).
You may also figure out that the descent of theses Russian horses are the heritage of a very specific breeding program that lasted for two centuries !
Read again how proudly the Princes are talking about their local stock, they do very much insist on the fact that this breeding program is based on their land, their history, their family.
Yes they used Arabian horses to create it but you can easily pick that the project has never been to breed “pure” Arabian horses. It was to make their own Polish heritage last for the future.
If you think about it you might even wonder if they would not be really disappointed to see it merged into a single generic breed without any distinction. (Probably the worst mistake of the 20th century).
They are not alone in that case. The very same is true for every single bloodline into this melting pot.
Some of these European stud-farms had over 200 years of breeding program. So many years of history all reduced into one big mess : modern European created so called Arabian.
Can you tell me the opinion of Mauvy about the decision of WAHO to merge all of European part-bred Arabians into in big giant studbooks and mix it with the remaining Asil lines ?
Now we all have to deal with the very same mess our predecessors have created.
But the sad truth is that for any newcomer there is Zero reference to the original design of their forefathers.
Instead of many names reflecting their true ancestry (like a Sanguzko horse for examples) we now only have “Arabian” stamped on them…
Sad, sad, sad…
I will even had that people create new “breeds” on a regular basis.
And their goal is hardly never to expect it to be merged into another one in the future…
Why do you all spend so much time and effort hating on one horse? Why not use your platform to celebrate the horses you support instead of hating on one horse. Personally I don’t believe in the purity of any horse, especially not one in the crossroads of the world. Maybe the Icelandic horse may have a partial claim but that’s just do to isolation.
Jaun: Because Arabian Bedouins thought, felt and acted as if purity of bloodlines was one of the most important criteria for deciding if a horse was Asil- Noble truly of worth to them- one that they could trust with their lives. Every year since the mid 6th century (ce)large numbers of muslim pilgrims have been crossing the arabian desert to reach Islams holy cities. The Bedouins had to have been exposed to all kinds of horses as the droves of foreigners crossed their lands, stopped at their wells, and consumed their pasturage. Yet they adhered to the horses they alone bred. Why? Because in a head to head match up the foreigners horses always came up wanting.
Also Jaun I have read over Lymans articles. Nowhere does he say he hates Skowronek. Years ago I attended an auction in the midwest. The owner was offering a colt with an escpecially ,’typey,’ head and waxed on and on about what a great head the colt had with multiple lines to Skowronek. Knowing what we know now the colts ,’type,’ most likely came from the Egyptian and Davenport in his lineage,not the Tarpan and Thoroughbred contained in the crosses to Skowronek.
In addition to Skowronek there are most likely no Asil Polish arabs that were ever imported to the U.S. This is because the last few Asil horses in Poland were sold to an Englishwoman who promtply is said to have bred them to Crabbet sires.
I have absolutely nothing against general list waho arabian horses. Some of them are sound good moving useful stock. But many of the useful positive attributes of todays waho arabians came from their Asil breeding.
best
Bruce Peek
Bruce,
I’m not going to argue if Skowronek had some questionable blood in his pedigree though I don’t believe anything about Thoroughbred ancestry. He has no resemblance to a Thoroughbred and neither do any of his offspring. I will also disagree with about where the “type” comes from in Skowronek’s offspring. If nothing else it’s clear he bred true to his own appearance and that shows up generation after generation. That’s probably what has always bothered me about the debt.
But the point I tried to make is why do we spend so much time on this one horse.
Juan-
You can read this post on why:
http://daughterofthewind.org/why-skowronek/
Lyman
Amelie-
I updated the pedigree for Lira.
http://skowronek.io/pedigrees/lira-1868-mare/
Lyman
Jaun: Because the use of Skowronek was the opening wedge if you will of the use of partbreds on what were up till that time,essentially Al Khamsa arabians bred in the united states.
For a thought experiment presume that the Polish horses were as their breeders claimed two thirds to four fifths arabian. Cross them off of Judy Wentworths, up till then asil stock and you get a seven eights bred arabian certainly enough to appear very arabian in type and yet because of the 12 1/2/ percent konic horses in their lineage certainly enough to give very surprising results when bred on down the line.
Now we do know that the Polish parade of imports got started with Skowronek, continued with the Babson use of Polish horses in the late 1930’s, and enlarged to a flood with the late 1960’s and onward surge of imports to the U.S. Thus you get an answer to the question of how we got here today with our essentially mixed gene pool of poor moving, leg flawed general list ,’ arabian ‘, horses.
best
Bruce Peek
Bruce, what about *Lassa? Would you consider her an asil Polish Arab?
R.J. I was wondering about that because of the Amurath Sahib line. It was my understanding that the Y chromosome testing proved the Bairactor (sp) line was a Thoroughbred out cross or whups. So he could no longer be thought of as asil.. Also Do you know if the gift fillies from Babolna to the Poles after W W 2 were asil or not? As i recall the Hungarians gave several mares to the Poles to help them get back on their feet after the war, and I believe that was before Babolna started using what we would now call general list stallions on their stock that traced to the desert.
best
Bruce Peek
That study on the Y-chromosome is, most unfortunately, being flung around and re-interpreted in ways that have very little to do with science or history. Bairactar’s Y-chromosome was not Ao (which is the Y-chromosome associated with the more recent Arabian imports to the west), but Tb_nonTb-d. This is not necessarily evidence that he was a Thoroughbred or even Turkoman outcross; interestingly, the earliest Arabian imports to the west are all Tb_nonTb-d. I do know that many people feel he must have a Turkoman sire line, but I still have not seen any arguments or evidence that prove that point convincingly to me; I am waiting for a follow-up study. All we know is that the earliest Arabian imports to the west have a different Y-chromosome from the more recent ones. That’s as much as we can safely conclude.
Kate: Would it be likely that the Tb-non Tb-d would be the Y chromosome for the anscestral Afro- Turkick horses? As I understand the current Scientific consensus the Afro Turkick horses were one of the 4 surviving horse ;” breeds,” if you will that survived the last ice age. Maybe a way of determining if the Afro Turkick root stock Y chromosome dna was Tb- non Tbd would be to test the Caspian horses. There is supposedly a remnant of the Caspians that were brought out of Iran post 1970 or so.
best
Bruce Peek
Thanks, Kate, for clarifying the information on Bairactar’s Y-chromosome type.
Would I be correct in thinking that, without further information, all it shows is that Bairactar (and the earliest Arabian imports) have a common tail-male ancestor with the TB/Turkoman horses mentioned?
Bruce,
Is Bairactar in *Lassa’s pedigree? I don’t see him in *Lassa’s pedigree, so I’m not sure why Bairactar is relevant to a discussion of *Lassa.
As for Bairactar’s sire line, which modern horses were tested to determine Bairactar’s Y DNA type? Or were Bairactar’s skeletal remains tested? If modern horses tested all descend in the male line from a single relatively recent ancestor, then how do we know there was not an incorrectly recorded sire somewhere between Bairactar and the most recent common ancestor?
You ask whether the Babolna mares producing in post-World War II Poland were asil. It depends what you consider asil. Tell me how you define asil, and then maybe I can tell you whether those mares were asil under your definition.
The Asil Club and Al Khamsa have accepted the Babolna lines from Siglavy Bagdady VI and 25 Amurath Sahib, and most of the Babolna mares breeding at the Polish state studs in the late 1940s and early 1950s were bred from more or less the same Babolna foundation animals. One exception was the Skowronek granddaughter Bruzda (205 Ajeeb).
R.J. I thought Baractor was in the Amurath sire line.. Wait- he wasn’t in all of them.. So if Amurath Sahib has the lines we see in the all breed pedigree, and not the other lines of Amuraths then he should be Asil, i think…
My references to the Bairactor line having the Tb-non Tbd line was based on the article that appeared on this blog a few months back which referenced Y Thoroughbred chromosomes.
So the basic criteria for Asil or not for the Babolna foundation horses were the groups of horses that were imported to Hungary from arabia, between 1790 and the 1930’s, and then again the new egyptians that were brought in i believe post 1970, and that were not outcrossed to Shagyas and or Polish or Russian stallions. A.I.U.I- Babolna required documentation stating who the imported horses were bred by, what their strain was, and when they were foaled, and Sire and Dam info as well.
best
Bruce Peek
I agree with Kate. The interpretation that the T_nonTb-d horses are automatically Thoroughbred or Turkoman outcrosses is getting way ahead of where the research currently is. Hopefully, when the next publication comes out – the specific HTs will be listed and I fully expect that most of the Arabian T_nonTb-d_ samples (though probably not all) will be in the Ta group (not Tu or Tb-oB). And that among those Ta horses, I also expect there will be horses accepted by Al Khamsa and/or the Asil Club. Granted, critics of those organizations will just say that shows the definitions for the organizations aren’t any good…but hey, everyone is going to interpret the information how they want to interpret it. I’m looking forward to the next round of publications, for additional data to continue piecing this information together. And hopefully, as the work continues, more and more sire lines will be tested.
Hi Bruce,
Yes, Bairactar is the tail-male ancestor for Amurath (1881), who is the tail-male ancestor for Amurath Sahib. But none of these three stallions is in *Lassa’s pedigree. Amurath Sahib descendants are accepted by both Al Khamsa and the Asil Club, for what it’s worth. Most of the Babolna mares producing in the Arabian herds at the state studs in post-World War II Poland had no Polish/Russian ancestry. I have the complete list of them at home, but as I recall the only one with Polish/Russian ancestry was Bruzda (known as 205 Ajeeb at Babolna).
Brda and Branka had Polish/Russian ancestry too, through Lartur and Siglavy Bagdady III, who was out of Kalga.
Beth-
I read a thread on the SE chatroom site about Skowronek that was written a number of years ago that you were active on. On the thread you comment about an English translation of the 1903 Russian stud book which you owned. Can you give more details about this translation? Who did it? Who published it? Etc.
Thanks,
Lyman
Bruce, Jenny, I think the best thing I can do re your questions is refer you to this very informative comment by Amélie, who explains the labelling of the Y-chromosome:
http://daughterofthewind.org/genetic-study-on-english-tb-ancestry-of-amer/#comment-1536581.
She and I don’t fully agree about the Arabianness of T, but it is a very good breakdown of the genetics, and explains why people are questioning the Bairactar lineage.
Lyman – a while back (I don’t remember the year off the top of my head), Melissa Paul had come across a copy of the 1903 RASB and did a translation. She caught a lot of flack for it and was repeatedly told her translation ‘was wrong.’ For my own info, I was able to get a copy of the original Russian version and had a translation of the introduction section done through the Slavic languages department at the University of Washington (my budget didn’t allow for a translation of the entire book.) There were no substantiative differences between that translation and what Melissa had done. It was never published, since I didn’t have the whole book done.
Beth- Thanks. Do you still have a copy of Melissa Paul’s translation? Where was Melissa Paul’s translation circulated? About what year was this done? Is it significantly different than this version?
http://skowronek.io/sources/stud-book-of-arabian-horses-with-their-pedigrees-present-in-russia-1903/
Thanks,
Lyman
R.J. Do you know if 240 Kuhaylan 8- 5 was an asil mare?. Its my understanding she was one of the Patton importation mares-( those that were stolen by the u.s. after ww2) Anyhoo theres a gal here in Oregon who has an endurance horse with 3 lines to her, 3 lines to Zarife, hallany mistanys sire, and 3 lines to Witez 2. I initially thought because of the 205 numerical disignation she was an asil Babolna horse- but then she has a line to Bairactor the progentitor of the Amurath line.
Tnanks
best
Bruce Peek
The Polish and Russian horses are great horses. The horses at the Marbach are great horses, they are of great conformation. I rode some non-Asil horses there and enjoyed them so much. Some of the best horses I ever rode were not Arabian at all. It is just that why you need to give these great horses an identity that is not yours. We the Bedouin own the copyright! You argue that mistakes must had happened over history, and there is no 100% proof that even a desert bred horses is crystal pure! Ok, let it be. But this is the horse WE created with all its possible anomalies and that is what we call Arabian. It is Arabian if and only if it is Arabian, full stop. With all the perfections and imperfections and possible flaws within the kitchen of its native home and natural habitat. Nobody else can claim this right. The Poles, the Russians, the Germans created some great horses and utilized Arabian blood, ok, thanks for acknowledging it. We appreciate the acknowledgement! But sorry your horse is not Arabian. Find yourself another trademark and another identity. Don’t sell your horse to the world under our identity. The Arabian identity is so integrated and ingrained in our cultural values and so sacred to us (with all its possible flaws) that we do not accept such identity theft. You think it is only about the purity of the breed, so what is purity? WAHO horses are also pure in registry, and are called purebred! Purity has a perspective. I do not know about Genetic purity. I cannot claim 3000 to 4000 years of genetic purity. But I know about purity from cultural perspective for so many centuries at least. The polish registry is 200 years. Any Bedouin strain is 800 years in average. This is our registry that you opted to acquire horses from. What Lyman, Edouard, Al Khamsa, and many others are doing is so righteous and so respectful. They respect the cultural purity of the breed that carries the brand. The best anyone else can do is to preserve it. The baseline is the moment it left the desert, after this moment it is all about preservation, an no tolerance is allowed.
So, Yasser, let me challenge you (and Hylke, who is thinking along the same lines) a bit, and give me your opinion: when some of your Tahawi Bedouins cousins, in the Sharqiyah desert, bred their asil mares to English Thoroughbreds for racing, are the offspring still Arabian? Born in the Arabian desert (or its extension the Sharqiyah desert, bred by Bedouins, ridden and raised Bedouin style… :))
At some point in the 1990s, after the Lebanese civil war was over, the race track of Beirut reopened its doors to horses from outside the country. We were all excited to learn that the Shaykh of the Ruwalah Bedouins, Anwar son of Fawaz al-Sha’lan (it can’t get more Bedouin than that), was bringing several of his own horses from Jordan. My father and I went to see them at stabkes in Chatila, near the Beirut airport. I still remember them and their names: Hazza’, al-Batraa (a chestnut mare), al-Majdal (a grey), Hammam (a black). Despite the classification committees best intentions, there was no way to classify them an Arabians, they all fell into the part-bred Arabian classification, and had more English Thoroughbred blood in them than the average local Lebanese horse. They were essentially 50% and 75% Anglo-Arabs, except Hammam who displayed the most Arabian type among them. Would you consider them Arabian? Why not?
Bruce, a small correction: 240 Koheilan VIII-5. Yes, she was asil, and as far as I know, a Hamdaniyah.
She was born in 1940 out of the asil mare, 2 Mersuch I-6 (or 2 Mersuch I-5), from the damline of 74 Tiffle. Sorry, but despite she was a young mare when she was “exported” (stolen) and she has no asil offspring. What a pity.
Her sire was Koheilan VIII (in Poland Koheilan I),from the sireline of Koheilan- Adjuze 1876 (O.A.) who was bred by the Anazeh.This sireline was one of the most precious sirelines of Babolna and appreciated by Tibor Pettkó-Szandtner.
Best wishes,
László
Oh yes! Laszlo’ The 1876 Koheilan Adjuze sire line as used at Babolna ultimately flowered into , both Tersk and Poland but I suspect not as asil horses. Still, didn’t Arax derive most of his good conformational attributes from his Babolna background as reinforced by the brilliant breeding practices of Tibor von Pettko de Szandter. Also did the did the Russians steal the Kuheilan Adjuze line horses from Babolna after the failure of the 1956 revolution
in Hungary? Was that how they ended up in Tersk?
best
Bruce Peek
Dear Mr Ghanim,
First sorry if I am not completely clear for this answer and also for another previous posts, English is not my maternal language.
If you read this blog since a long time, you could see, in other discussions that we say the same for the copyright. I always said, maybe it was in French, that the only horses we can call « asil » Arabians come from the bedouins of the middle east countries, and to be purist coming from the desert. No one else could claim this right. So I agree completely with you.
You also said that Poles, Germans, Russians utilized Arabian blood, that’s true and this is the same for almost every countries of the world that used Arabian horses, even Egypt for example that is not a country of the Middle East where Arabian has been created. If you say that my horses are not Arabians it would be exactly the same for every Arabians horses around the world, except those coming from bedouins of the Middle East, even if Al Khamsa, or Lyman Doyle or Edouard al-dahdah or someone else I don’t know, say they have the best paper possible. You said by yourself, and I repeat I agree with you, the only horses we can call Arabians are Arabian. I put one of your sentence : « With all the perfections and imperfections and possible flaws within the kitchen of its native home and natural habitat ».
Ok, that’s so true. As soon as you change these horses of their home and natural habitat, they can not be called Arabians. This is the same for wine in France. We can not call Burgundy for example a wine coming from Chili or Australia, even if they use the same « cépage » : Pinot Noir or Chardonnay.
Why am I using Arabians or « Asil » to qualify my horses ? Because everyone in the world do the same and it would be incomprehensible if I try alone to define differently my horses.
The problem we are talking about in this thread is the possible use of non Arabian blood in Poles « Arabian » horses. Especially those coming from Prince Sanguzko stud. Sorry but for me no one has « parole d’évangile » (I translate this french expression in Google it gives « Gospel word » but it does not sound proper for me, maybe this is the proper translation I don’t know). If I criticize what are explaining Lyman Doyle or Edouard al-dahdah on old Poles writings to discredit Skowronek, it is because we can have differents readings of the same text. Furthermore no one is doing the job as a defense lawyer. For what I read of the texts he published, I did not read everything for the moment, I understood that as soon as it is written non Arabian horse or Poles horses, it means for him that it is coming from another race blood. I do not agree. It is clear for me, expecially thanks to Sangusko Jr letter, that for this Prince we can only call Arabians, horses that were born in Middle East countries. The same thing you said and the same I said also. In our time, for a lot of people we call Egyptians, Poles, French,… « Arabian » horses born and bred in these countries. This is quite the same as Sanguzko said and I agree with this way of talking. So to conclude, for the moment, I am not convinced of the discredit they apply on these Poles horses.
I do not agreee with Lyman Doyle for the explanation of other parts of the texts but it will be too long here to explain.
Now, to speak about genetics, don’t forget we are on web and everybody can speak and say stupid things, especially those that do not understand these scientific papers. Please, I beg you, believe people that are specialists in this domain and I can call me one of those. This is my work, I am researcher in molecular genetic in public domain (INSERM) for 20 years.
In the majority of cases, Y chromosome or mtDNA studies are used to work on genetic of population and not to discriminate between two individuals, except sometimes for criminal research for example, but for that classical DNA studies are better to discriminate. Genetic of population is the goal for the papers we are talking about. The results are of course true, except if one researcher or one student modified its data, but fortunately it’s quite rare. It does not mean that the conclusion are true, and this the case for every domains of research. The only things we can conclude with these papers are the « clusters » or haplogroup they define. And that’s all !
How could they say that this haplogroup is for sure an Arabian haplogroup and this other one is not, a «thoroughbred » for example. They did not test all Arabians in the world (those that Al Kahmsa or Asil club say they are asil). Why in all Arabian horses not tested we could not find an haplogroup that was previously define as not pure and finally is ? Furthermore, why can we find so many haplogroups in so called Arabians tested ? Is it coming from different male ancestors (for Y chromosome studies), not all Arabians maybe, or different female ancestors (for mtDNA studies), or mutations that could have appeared during evolution, far away or recently ? For the moment it is impossible to discriminate.
Furthermore, for some papers they compare so called « Tb » haplogroups with « Arabian » haplogroups. How could they discriminate between these two horse races ? We don’t have access to DNA coming from original ancestors of these two races ??? And more, Thouroughbred have not been created for a part with Arabian horses ?
One more point, with these studies we can only analyse one branch of the pedigree, the upper male line (for Y studies) and the lower female line (for mtDNA studies). The biggest part of the pedigree is not tested. So, how can we say with these studies that a horse is pure for sure ? It is completely stupid. And we can say the same for presume non pure horses, we can’t conclude.
As you see, it is not so simple. I am always afraid to see all these persons that seem to have good intentions, pretending knowing the purity or non purity of Arabian horses, presenting themselves as « Arabian » horse specialists but having no critical sense.
For WAHO, I am the last one to defend them. They did not accept horses coming from Middle East countries, where Arabian has been created, during so long…
Yasser, you are well welcome to come at our place to see our horses, and to see Nimr Shabareq, one of the imported syrian horses, the only ones we can call Arabians…
For westerners like us, we can’t do better than reinfuse Arabian blood from Middle East countries.
Very best to you ,
Guillaume.
Great post, Yasser!
Here’s some letters in French recently published between the Blunts and Roman Sangusko Jr. I’ll write about these documents soon, here are the letters:
4 Nov 1899 by Roman Sanguszko Jr to Lady Anne Blunt
http://skowronek.io/sources/4-november-1899-letter-by-roman-sanguszko-jr-to-lady-anne-blunt/
22 Nov 1899 reply by Wilfred Blunt
http://skowronek.io/sources/22-november-1899-letter-by-wilfred-blunt-to-roman-sanguszko-jr/
28 Dec 1899 response by Roman Sanguszko Jr.
http://skowronek.io/sources/28-december-1899-letter-by-roman-sanguszko-jr-to-wilfred-blunt/
No Bruce,the Koheilan-Adjuze (1876) sireline went through Polish mediation to Tyersk Stud.
The Koheilan IV son (out of 10 Gazal)went to Poland and served as Koheilan I there. He came back to Babolna and stand there under the name of Koheilan VIII.
In 1939 the soviets bought the Polish (Janow) bred Piolun ( Koheilan I-Dziewnna)who was later an extremely successful sirehorse.His descendants moved back to Hungary after the disintegration of the Soviet Union. For example the Naftalin son Visbaden (sic!). But they were no longer asil arabians.
I don’t want to criticize you, but I have to mention that, please use the name of the general correctly: Tibor Pettkó-Szandtner or if it is more sympatic for you, Tibor von Pettkó-Szandtner.
Best wishes,
László
Thank you for the letters, Lyman – they make for interesting reading! Who was the mare that Sanguszko referred to in his first letter, the great-granddam of Kasida whom he had bought? Looking at Kasida’s entry in the AK roster, the options are Aziza, Azz, Ghazieh, and the granddam of Makbula. Were any of them known to have been bought by Slawuta?
Kate- I don’t know. Maybe RJ would know.
Lyman
Dear Lyman, I visited your site and I would like to thank you for this accurate work.
Best wishes,
László
Dear MR Ghanim, I’m not quite ok with you when you tell “They respect the cultural purity of the breed that carries the brand. The best anyone else can do is to preserve it.” arabian horses are not for museum purpose and as Guillaume is telling “For westerners like us, the better we can’t do is to reinfuse Arabian blood from Middle East countries.” Unfortunately they had in USA an GOLD opportunity with TA’AN keheilan Kallawieh from the Sherif Al Jabry but they lost it and now their breedings are paralysed in ” a purity stagnation ” as stated in Al Kamsa rules, waitting for oriental blood !
Unfortunately, Ta’an died soon after his importation to the USA. He only sired one horse that was never registered out of a Davenport mare. Pity.
Dear arnault: Are you referring to Ta’an the Hamdany strain stallion the Dirks were given a number of years ago?
If by paralysed in a purity stagnation you’re talking about the current total dominance of the Egyptian Monet- Nazeer gene pool you are right on target! The solution would seem to be rotating out crosses say Davenport, to Saudi, to frozen from L’aszlo’s stallion, to Brown- Babson, to French or Tunisian asils then Lymans Doyles and finally back to the Tahawy horses. Since most of these breeding groups were descended from Bedouin bred horses. That should give you 7 generations of out crosses and would essentially create, in comparative terms, an open pedigree, at least compared to the hellaciouscly inbred new Egyptians currently dominating by sheer numbers preservation efforts here in the west.
I’d be interested in what people think of this.
best
Bruce Peek
@Guillaume:
Thank you very much for the invitation! Will be happy to accept it one day. I did not say a horse bred outside Arabia is not Arabian! I said: “The best anyone else can do is to preserve it. The baseline is the moment it left the desert, after this moment it is all about preservation”. So nobody can claim it is ok to inject a small amount of blood of unknown sources! That is why we reject the Egyptian lines with Skowronek. Preserving an Arabian outside its natural habitat is a challenge but not impossible and needs to be based on two main pillars: Preserving purity of blood, and Preserving Qualities. The first is based on pedigree research, while the second is based on breeding practices. For Skowronek, it is great that now we have all the available resources assembled in one place for the first time so we can have more scientific discussions based on a complete picture. For the genetics studies, thanks for the note, I completely acknowledge it.
@Arnault: who said the Arabian horse is for museum? Yes new “authentic” blood is always important.
Dear Bruce
Yes I referenced to TA’AN hamdani al Efri of the Dicks I was very impressed by his son Al Sabek Keheilan Kallawieh.And in fact the solution is is to be rotating out crosses with real asil from middle east preferably because you are building new base of lineage which creat abundance of in-heritance gen. with Jean-Claude Rajot, Fabienne Vesco, Louis Bauduin, Guillaume and I we experimented for now 10 years and the quality of the degree “de sang” “la trempe” and “le cachet de race” sorry to say in french have nothing to do than before.
best. arnault
Lyman – I think it was around 2002/2003; I’m pretty sure the translation I had done was 2003/2004. I don’t recall how broadly Melissa distributed the one she did – your best bet is to check with her directly.
And an update…I have provided the Arabian Horse Archives Project with a copy of the translation I had done, so you can see it there.
Beth
Weird – after making my last post, I don’t see any of the other comments anymore (even though it says there are 55 responses).
Anyone else having a problem seeing the other replies?
Thank you for the information Beth. It looks like there is not much difference in the translation. Perhaps some word choice here and there. Did Melissa translate the entire stud book?
Yes, the comments don’t go past 51 responses for me either. I think its a formatting problem.
Solved. All comments should reflect now.
Hmmm- maybe not enough room. I really found Yassers comments hit the spot. We should be free to enjoy Shagyas and Gidrans and Anglo Arabs for what they are. And, acknowledge where they got many of the qualities that make them so special- The asil desert bred. But don’t call large numbers of horses that came from a three quarters arabian gene pool arabian cuz they simply are not.
And- it is simply not true. The general list arabian owning public can deal with the truth of the matter that most all of what they own are part breds. Horses with most all of the asil attributes of endurance, sensitivity, intelligence, and the ability to learn and generously give their riders these qualities. In fact arabian horses are so saturated with good things to enrich other breeds that official half arabs often possess most of the good traits.
best
Bruce Peek
There is one point of difference between the translation Beth had done and the one I had done: the use of the English word Thoroughbred to describe the horses in Part 2.
Here are links to both:
http://skowronek.io/sources/stud-book-of-arabian-horses-with-their-pedigrees-present-in-russia-1903/#post-2794-footnote-ref-2
https://arabianarchives.org/portals/documents/item/1903-russian-arabian-horse-stud-book-english-translation
I had extensive conversations on this topic with Dr. Ekaterina Vsemirnova, the translator I hired for this project and in the end we felt it was better to translate the horses in Part 2 as “horses of Arabian blood.” There were a number of reasons for this:
1. If the Russians wanted to use the word for the English word “Thoroughbred” they had words to describe this, and yet they did not choose to do so. According to her there were three ways to translate Thoroughbred, “po’rodistyy”, “chistokrovnaya verhovaja loshad” or pureblood riding horse, or “angliyskaya chistokrovnaja skakovaja loshad” or “English pureblood racing horse.” The Russians putting together the book could have derived meaning from these terms but they didn’t.
2. They did not use the term “purebred” or “full blood” to describe the horses in part 2 either, although they did have these terms then. “Purebred” was one of the proposed terms for part 2 as described in the section towards the end of the document on this link.
http://skowronek.io/sources/arabian-horse-and-its-importance/
3. There also another related that they could have chosen that the didn’t choose: “vysokih arabskih krovey”, or “a horse of high Arabian bloods.” The Darley Arabian was described this way in some contexts.
4. They chose “Krovnye Arabskie loshadi” where “krovnye” means blood, “Arabskie” means Arabian, and “loshadi” means horses. There is no direct equivalent in English, which my translator best described as “horses of Arabian blood.”
It seems the Russians did not want to use the word “pure” in Russian “chisto” in any way shape or form, to describe the horses in Part 2. Everyone knows what “pure” means. In the Arab case there is no semi “pure.” It’s all or nothing. In retrospect, I think the Russians had the best understanding of the Bedouin concept of purity outside of Arabia. Mixed blood horse and horses of insufficiently ascertained Bedouin origin were equally not pure.
I’ll write an article on these issues hopefully soon and incorporate these texts as well as the Sanguszko/Blunt letters and tie them all together.
Thank you, Edouard!
****
Although the “Skowronek rabbit hole” is one that I’m not really interested in going down, yet again…for some additional context, I’ve included below the footnotes that go with the title translated for the 2nd part of the studbook…for anyone who hasn’t accessed the actual document yet.
“2). Thoroughbred3 Arabian horses plus the composition of the studs or of the stud sections4 of pure Arabian trend.5”
“3 The Russian words ???????????? and ??????? both mean “pureblooded/thoroughbred;” however, the former Russian term is the literal translation for “pureblooded” (purebred) and is used in this text to designate the purebred Arabian horse of known Bedouin extraction. The latter term usually designates a crossbred horse (in some places referred to as a “Thoroughbred,” in others as an “Eastern” or “Oriental” horse). However, ??????? is also used in places to designate “purebred/pureblooded.”
Consequently, I relying on context for meaning.”
“4 The choice here was “division,” section,” or “branch.” Elsewhere “branch” is designated (very unambiguously) by ?????. I decided to use “section” for ?????? because Schiele uses this nomenclature (see p. 236).”
“5 Bold type in the Russian text.”
From the Al Khamsa web site, information on Bint Azz:
Lady Anne Blunt [J&C, 12.11.1896] refers to Bint Azz as a fleabitten grey Dahmah Shahwaniyah in the stud of Ali Pasha Sharif. In the same book on p406, Lady Anne notes that Bint Azz was imported in 1897 by Prince Sanguszko to what would be present-day Poland through the dealer Amato, and on 11.10.1899 that Bint Azz had died at Sanguszko’s of a broken leg, leaving no produce there.
So the mare exported to the Sanguszko stud was actually a granddam of Kasida’s, not great-granddam.
Thank you, R. J.; that is good to know.
Kate: “That study on the Y chromosome is, being flung around, and re-interpreted in ways that have very little to do with science and history.” Um, yeah, that seems to nearly always be what happens with studies that reveal inconvenient truths. Those who are negatively affected try to distract with discussions about how the study doesn’t really mean what it says it means… Ok so the thing to to do is to contribute to follow up studies performed by other scientists in other locations to see if the original study can be replicated, or least reach similar findings. That’s how credible science has always worked. Test, retest and test again to see if what has been discovered is cold fusion, achievable in your kitchen sink or an artifact created by mish-mashed data, or the real thing with actual new information that in this particular instance can be used to provide the foundation for policy that is useful and has a purpose.
best wishes
Bruce Peek
This post is becoming an epic with several threads of discussion 🙂 .. I wish the blog could allow for multiple threads to follow and participate more conveniently.
@Edouard:
Thanks for the important point. But I never intended to say that any horse bred in the desert was Asil. I mean the cultural system (up to certain point of time) was able to classify and isolate the non-Asil blood.
My point is: we cannot (today) assure crystal clear genetic purity over millennia. But we accept the social system of the Bedouin up to the modern era until the Bedouin social system itself started to collapse! We ALL trust the horses of Sb’aa, Fad’aan, Ruela …etc. that were acquired by Abbas Pasha, LAB, Davenport and even the Tahawies up to the fall of the 19th century and early 20th century. But the problems started in the second half of the 20th century when the Bedouins drove cars and lived in villas! Then we had to filter their horses with the same purity criteria we follow with anyone else to trace their horses to the late 19th and early 20th centuries trusted sources. From this point backward we trust the Bedouin social system.
It is sad to say that the SOURCE was shutdown in the past few decades and there is no more new supply. We are only trying to clone the old supply i.e to preserve it. Arabia was not only a territory, it was a cultural context within living traditions that no longer exist, only some reminiscent of the past kept as folklore! 🙁 … that is why the PURE blood we have in hand today is so precious and so scarce that we MUST preserve (in terms of both blood and qualities.) There is no Bedouin kitchen to bake new pies!
Good comment, Yasser. Amen.
Lyman: I have found independent confirmation of your thesis of part bred breeding among the founder stock of the Polish arabians. The paper is titled Pedigree analysis of Polish arabians based on founder contributions by Gus Cothrans. At the time 2013 he was at Texas A and M. In a sample of an abstract Cothrans states, The first anscestor of Polish Arabs known from pedigree records was the stallion Gniady of unknown origin bought from Vienna in 1793. Regarding these horses, recognizing them as purebred arabs may have only a wishfuill thinking character.” Cothrans also concludes that because of founder effect the Polish horses are inbred. His study covered the 50 years between 1948 and 1997.
best
Bruce Peek
Bruce- Can you leave a link to the study? I can’t seem to find the particular study you mentioned above.
Thanks,
Lyman
I’m also curious, because when I search that title, I get https://doi.org/10.1016/j.livprodsci.2004.08.002 which doesn’t include Dr. Cothrans as an author.
What a breath of fresh air to see a discussion that doesn’t resort in mud slinging.
Lyman and Ambar I messed up I should have put Microsatellite analysis of Genetic diversity and population structure of Arabian horse populations, for the one with Cothrans.. I thought the one on the increasing chances of inbreeding getting really risky in Polish arabs had Cothrans too, but i could have mixed that one up with another from the University of Gdansk.. Will check and get back to you,,
best
Bruce Peek
Ok the Cothrans study along with Ana Khanshour is called- Maternal Phylogenic relationships and genetic variation among arabian horse populations using whole Mitochondrial DNA D loop sequencing.
The abstracts are really interesting
best
Bruce Peek
Maternal Phylogenetic relationships