Straight profiles are beautiful: Siglavy Bagdady VI
[August 10, 2009 correction: The uplaoding of the picture below elicited a discussion between Laszlo Kiraly and RJ Cadranell, as a result of which the horse in the picture was identified as the non-asil Babolna stallion Koheilan XI (Koheilan X x 242 Kuhailan Zaid), a stallion with a distant line to the English Thoroughbred mare 30-Maria. Apologies to the readers for this mistkae. Edouard]
The discussion on asil Arabian facial features expands as more and more readers and contributors send pictures of beautiful profiles without the prominent ‘dish’ now so common in show horses. Laszlo Kiraly of Pecs, Hungary, sent me this stunning photo of the asil Babolna stallion Siglavy Bagdady VI (Siglavy Bagdady V. – 250 Kuhaylan Haifi I), taken in 1967. Laszlo tells me it reminds him of Bahrain’s horses’ heads. It also reminds me of some of the best Lebanese horses of the olden days; and of the best desert breds from Syria; and the Saudi Arabian horses; and some many Tunisian horses; and of the Egyptian horses before most of them became show toys. All these are one and the same horse.
Look at this picture and look well. There are not many horses like this left in the West. This is probably one of the best photos ever posted on Daughter of the Wind. Thanks Laszlo.The discussion on asil Arabian facial features expands as more and more readers and contributors send pictures of beautiful profiles without the prominent ‘dish’ now so common in show horses. Laszlo Kiraly of Pecs, Hungary, sent me this stunning photo of the asil Babolna stallion Siglavy Bagdady VI (Siglavy Bagdady V. – 250 Kuhaylan Haifi I), taken in 1967. Laszlo tells me it reminds him of Bahrain’s horses’ heads. It also reminds me of some of the best Lebanese horses of the olden days; and of the best desert breds from Syria; and the Saudi Arabian horses; and some many Tunisian horses; and of the Egyptian horses before most of them became show toys. All these are one and the same horse.
Look at this picture and look well. There are not many horses like this left in the West. This is probably one of the best photos ever posted on Daughter of the Wind. Thanks Laszlo.
Wonderful photo. Thanks for sharing, Laszlo. Its so great to have a shot of Siglavy Bagdady VI. He is no longer just a name on a pedigree.
Tzviah
Dear Tzviah,
I will send You a few pictures about my herd.Please send me an e_mail adress across Edouard
László
What a magnificent horse! Thank you for that lovely photo.
the Face not Number one It Loss Some Points for the Pure Face
Dear Pure man,
I respect your deep knowledge,but
please,answer to me, what’s the meaning of the terminus technicus ” Pure face”? And please ,whats the meaning of the nick-name ” Pure man “?Last,but
least,if it is not problem,give us Your name .
I learn with pleasure from anybody,but I would like to know,who is it.
Yours sincerely,Király,László
I am sure he can defend himself on his own, but being an Arab myself, I read it as a “perfect face”. In Arabic the word for pure is ‘asil’ is ‘authentic’, which sometimes also translates into ‘pure’. But he is otherwise a Bedouin from a big Najd tribe, who asked not to be identified because of some of the ciritical positions he adopts against some important Saudi Arabian people, who are not breeding asil arabians (while others are). I have promised him to respect his privacy, and so I am not asking him to put his name and tribe out there in the open. He has his reasons for doing so, and they must be good reasons.
WE row in the same boat,I think
László
It would be nice to see the rest of the horse. So much focus is spent on the head, forgetting about the other characteristics which separate our breed from all the other horses. Short-coupling, strong toplines, tail set higher and carried like a flag, hooves that are black and hard, the luxurious feel of the coat like the most rare and expensive satin, silky manes and tails, the dark skin, the chiseled bone, the prominent veins that show through the thin and fine skin, the brilliant sheen that is seen on the coat, almost luminiscent. And even in a horse who some may consider off-type, when the horse moves and floats around the ring, one sucks in his breath, as the miracle of the ugly duckling and the swan happens right before their eyes. I just hope we get to a point where we appreciate the horse that stands in front of us, for all that he is and not the impossible horse who only lives in the mind.
Ralph, thanks for your post. Your words always conjure up beautiful pictures in my mind. Yes, we must not forget all of the other qualities of the asil horse that you described so eloquently and only look at the head. On the other hand, I am overjoyed to see any photo of this rare old Babolna asil. Maybe someone can dig up a photo showing the rest of the horse?
Best,
Tzviah
Here you go:
http://daughterofthewind.org/photo-of-the-day-siglavy-bagdady-vi-babolna/
Amazing Pictures, Thank you for posting them
Regards
Mehdi
Thanks, Edouard.
I forgot that you had posted this some time ago. What do you think, Ralph?
I am not surprised at how powerful this horse is, as I would have expected such a horse from the Babolna program. Diane is better at analyzing conformation than I am and I am sure she will notice much more than I have said. One of the most interesting things that I noticed is the jowl: in the full body photo, the jowl looks much larger-sized than in the head shot. His shoulder is impressive, as is his heart girth. If he were standing square, I think we could get a better sense of how generous his heart girth is. I like his hind quarter too and the fact that he is a bit more rounded (even though the tail is set a bit lower than the standard), suggesting that this horse has the ability to really get under himself. He appears to have been a very powerful mover. Probably the kind of horse that would take your breath away, when moving. Possibly, elastic, longer-strided. He is a very old-time horse, the type of which we were more familiar with, not so very long ago. I wish his neck were set a bit higher and the connection between his head and neck left a little more room in the throatlatch. Again, is it the stance or the angle of the camera which gives the viewer perceptions that are not accurate? I am not sure if it is the angle or how the horse is standing but his forearms also seem a bit short. There are so many really good things though, that I feel like I may be nit-picking. Is this horse of the same family which was used in the Lippizaner breed?
Sorry, Qick Draw McGraw here, with the “submit” button…I wanted to say that I like the horse very much but I think you might have already gathered that. 🙂
Well, he blood is living fossil, as far as I am concerned. All the great asils that made the Polish and Russian programs into what they are today are in there…
No Ralph,
this family was not used in the Lippizaner breed.This sireline is not the line of The Great Siglavy (1811),this is the line of the Fadlallah -import stallion,Siglavy Bagdady OA.(imp.1902 to Bábolna)
László
Thank you so much László 🙂
Two points. First, I do not think the horse in the head shot is Siglavy Bagdady VI, because SB VI had a broad blaze, pink nose, and pink on the underlip. None of that shows here. See also the picture of SB VI on p. 207 of Erika Schiele’s book The Arab Horse in Europe, which shows the left (near) side of his head.
Second, even though this is not the male line of Siglavy OA, Siglavy Bagdady VI does trace to Arabians bred at Lipizza, namely Gazlan (1864) and Groczana.
Oh, RJ, you are just too good. I looked at the other photos of SigBad VI, and just didn’t think!
I am sending Edouard a copy of the photo where he is shown from the left, and the blaze covers the chin, and the blaze enters into the nostril area.
In the photo from the right, which is already on this blog, it is quite a bit more in focus, and the jowl looks bigger to me there. Perhaps that is a matter of lens distortion on this head shot, which is still a lovely photo.
Dear R.J.,
both picture made from Siglavy Bagdady VI,I think.The portrait is made from a relative young horse,the another one is in the last period of his life.I dont remember the picture in the book of Erika Schiele.I have this book,but in my office,so now I can’t see it.
But I have some more pictures of this horse,and I will send them tomorrow to Edouard.
László
You have right with the Lipizza-thing,R.J.To Lipizza was always imported some original arab horses.From the noblest material.You named Gazlan and Groczana.Gazlan was an original arab,a Koheil Tameri,bred By the Wuold Ali Anazeh tribe.First came to Babolna with the Brudermann-imports,after was “pepiniere” at Lipizza Stud.Groczana was bred 1852 in Lipizza but from original arabians.The strain is Siglavy Gidran,by the studbook.
László
The Gazlan that I named, Gazlan (1864), was a son of Gazlan OA out of Groczana. Gazlan (1864) stood at Babolna 1879 to 1884.
His purebred get included 18 Gazlan, 20 Gazlan, 24 Gazlan, 142 Gazlan, 143 Gazlan, 145 Gazlan, and Gazlan I.
His Shagya get included 21 Gazlan, 40 Gazlan, 144 Gazlan, 146 Gazlan, 148 Gazlan, Gazlan II, and Gazlan Shagya.
László, where did you get this photo, and how was it originally labeled? Maybe it is Siglavy Bagdady VI-2, or another son of Siglavy Bagdady VI? Siglavy Bagdady VI had a pink nose and underlip, which should be apparent even in photos when he was relatively young.
There is also Siglavy Bagdady VI 1959 Mangalia; maybe this is the horse in the photo?
R.J., I know the man,who was leader of the State Stud Babolna in that time when Siglavy B,VI.was stallion there.He is 70 years old,but he has very good memory. I will ask him in the next days about your question,but .. This picture was a postcard from 1967.The foto was made in Bábolna,Hungary.Sorry,but now I must go to sleep a little bit.The dawn is coming,and the horses waiting for me.
Best wishes,
László
Maybe this is Koheilan XI, who was also at Babolna at that time? The head is similar to his sire, Koheilan X. The bridle is the same or nearly identical to one used in pictures of other Babolna sires from mid-20th century, which indicates that it is a Babolna horse. But post card printers can make mistakes.
…and not only postcard- makers,but publishers of books also can make mistakes .This foto was published in the book “Magyar Lovaskönyv” too (printed in 1988,whole color side,page 153.With the label:Siglavy Bagdady 6 arab törzsmén (chief sire), Siglavy Bagdady 5-250 Kuhailan Haifi 1).The arabic numbers,1,and 5 are mistakes,naturally,and maybe the horse is also another.Wow!Now I found some fotos of Koheilan XI.
I was not interested in this horse,because not asil..Maybe You have right?I will to try search.
R.J.,this book is signed by all the best known hungarian hippologists that time!László
László, you can poke fun if you like, but it does happen. On page 7 of July 1991 Arabian Horse World is a photo of a mare that is captioned as Pretty Fancy. One day I looked at the photo and said to the owner, “That is not Pretty Fancy. She did not have a snip like that.” So the owner took a second look at it, this time with fresh eyes, and said, “You’re right! That’s Juno!”
All I am asking you to do is forget for a moment the printed captions and signatures of best known Hungarian hippologists and look for yourself at the horses in the photos.
Another example: on page 12 of the Selby Stud catalogue is the signature of Albert Harris, eminent Arabian horse breeder and at the time vice president of the Arabian Horse Club. On this same page is a picture with a caption that says it is Image, but if you examine the horse, it is actually *Rahal.
You’re right,R.J.,I think.This foto was made of Koheilan XI.I am publisher since 20 years,and since 15 years I have publish a monthly horse-magazin (www.lovasnemzet.hu), so I can tell you a lot of stories too.I have thousends of fotos in my fotoarchivum,but this postcard (and the same picture in the book) was the only foto from a forgotten stallion,until the last few months.Some monthts ago I found some black/whites from Siglavy B,VI.,but they are not quality fotos.Thank You R.J.You’re right.I made a mistake,sorry. László
So that’s Koheilan XI! RJ, you are a genius! Hats off to you!
I thought I had caught RJ in an error. I don’t remember the conversation about a Pretty Fancy photo being really Juno—Anita, it is the one of Darcy in the front of the World. I looked the photo up in our files and it was still labeled Pretty Fancy. The markings are double checked, and the photo has been relabeled and moved.
I am groveling…. again!
Hi Jeanne 🙂
There were also 2 conversations I recall concerning mis-identification of photos, one of which was of the lovely Juno standing with foal under tree with her tail over her back.
The photo showed such a beautiful and friendly mare, I id’d her as Adriana. LOL Good thing you all corrected me as to her real identity as Juno CF, or I would still be making that mistake.
AnitaW (who also agreed the Darcy photo showed Pretty Fancy) AND knew Juno, Adriana, Pretty Fancy, and took the photos…
But, but… the photo of the mare with tail over her back is June, and the foal is Janub Al Krush….
Oh well. That’s 2 for 2 on that photo. Wrong horse the first time… and unreliable memory the second.
And June was one of my favorites.
We have sets of horse postcards from Babolna dating from the 90s — we found that some of these were mislabeled as well.
Yes, Koheilan XI was a 30 Maria descendant. He also has a line to the Polish mare Hadrja, who was the tail-female line for Siglavy Bagdady III.
I’d better be clear, I know of four stallions called Siglavy Bagdady III; the Siglavy Bagdady III in Koheilan XI’s pedigree is the one that stood at Babolna, foaled 1919 at Inocenzdvor (Siglavy Bagdady-11 1906 x Kalga).
There is also a Siglavy Bagdady III in Polish Arabian Stud Book, foaled 1914 in Babolna (Siglavy Bagdady OA x 42 Hamdani Semri), from the asil Babolna lines.
Siglavy Bagdady III in Mangalia was foaled 1923 at Raduatz, by Siglavy Bagdady I (Bab. 1904, Siglavy Bagdady OA x 61 Dzsingiskhan) and out of 90 Marzouk. This is a 30 Maria horse through Dzsingiskhan.
There is also a more recent Siglavy Bagdady III, foaled 1989 in and later stood at Topolcianky, but this horse is a Shagya, grandson of one of Siglavy Bagdady V’s Shagya colts at Babolna.
This things are not very complicated,I think.What do you want to know,R.J.?
László
My question was not too polite,R.J. I’m sorry. But I don’t understand why did You row that horses in connection with Siglavy Bagdady VI.?
Best wishes,
László