Judging Skowronek
There are many ways to judge a horse. Some of the more common considerations include conformation, size, temperament, athletic ability and genetic “potency.” These are normal criteria for evaluating all breeds of horses.
However, within the Arabian breed, another criterion takes precedence over all others: pure blood. A pure or asil Arabian horse is defined by its exclusive origin among the Bedouin tribes of Desert Arabia, the creators of the Arabian breed. Bedouins accepted a horse as pure if they had reliable information on its strain, sub-strain and Bedouin breeder. Conversely, Bedouins removed horses from the breed for two distinct reasons: mixed blood and unknown origin.
Mixed blood. Bedouins used the term hajin to generally describe any horse that contained non-Arabian blood mixed with Arabian blood. Horses of mixed blood are by definition not pure. Any descendant of a mixed blood horse is also of mixed blood so the status of hajin is not reversible. A hajin horse does not have a strain connecting it to the community of Arabian horses. How do we know a horse has mixed blood? The most obvious way, but not the only way, is that the owner of a horse identifies non-Arabian blood in a horse’s pedigree. In the case of foreign blood, there is no benefit of the doubt. If a horse had confirmed or probable non-Arabian blood in its pedigree, Bedouins would no longer consider it an Arabian.
Unknown origin. Bedouins used the term kadish to refer to a horse with unknown origin. This concept is a bit harder to understand, peculiar to the Arabian breed and open to interpretation. It is reasonable for some to consider a certain horse pure while others to consider the same horse kadish. After a period of time, and based on an individual or collective judgment, a horse without adequate information on its Bedouin origin is kadish. The status of kadish is not reversible. Horses of unknown origin can only produce horses of unknown origin. Bedouins did not consider horses of unknown origin Arabian.
Any single ancestor that is of mixed blood (hajin) or of unknown origin (kadish) is enough to disqualify any descendant of that horse as a pure Arabian, regardless of the number of generations of separation.
How to judge the stallion Skowronek, said to be Arabian, born in Russia in 1909, and bred by an ethnic Pole? Perhaps the most revealing way to judge him is the way his home country judged him. Were the Russians and Poles aware of the criteria described above in 1909? What did they consider a pure Arabian? How much Arabian blood did Skowronek have?
In the century prior to Skowronek’s birth, the equine experts of the day writing in Russian, Polish, German, French and English clearly understood the concept of mixed blood. If you bred horses that were considered “Oriental” in Europe between 1850 and 1910 and were literate in Russian, Polish or German then it is highly likely you knew that Skowronek’s ancestors were horses of mixed blood. Primary sources dating from 1799 and secondary sources from 1860 show that Skowronek had numerous non Arabian ancestors.
Skowronek’s country of birth, Russia, considered pure blood the governing characteristic of the Arabian horse. The 1903 Russian Arabian Stud Book established written criteria that placed horses into two separate sections. Part 1 for “pureblood Arabian horses of exclusive Bedouin origin,” required horses listed to have reliable information on their strain, sub-strain, Bedouin breeder and the chain of custody of the horse from the Bedouin breeder to the owner in Russia. Part 2 for “horses of Arabian blood and equine profiles of farms or farm’s departments of exclusively Arabian direction” had no requirement for entry and contained horses of mixed blood (hajeen) and horses without the necessary information on their Bedouin origin (kudsh). Skowronek’s dam, Jaskólka born in 1891, is listed in Part 2.
How much Arabian blood did Skowronek have? The 1903 Russian Arabian Stud Book provides an explicit method to evaluate each of Skowronek’s root ancestors, as they would have been judged in Skowronek’s country of origin at the time of his birth. The original ancestors that meet the requirements as “pureblood Arabians” in Part 1 of the 1903 Stud Book are 100% Arabian. The others are 0% Arabian. From this basis we can calculate Skowronek’s percentage of Arabian blood.
The criteria for judging Skowronek are unambiguous, and the facts are overwhelming. The primary and secondary source evidence published prior to 1910, which has been professionally translated, includes approximately 250 pages of English text based on original Russian, Polish, German and French documents. This information will be published on www.skowronek.io, the FaceBook page Skowronek – A Partbred Arabian Horse, as well as this blog.
Of course this analysis applies to all horses of modern Polish, Russian, Crabbet, Spanish pedigrees, not just those that have Skowronek in the pedigree, but also his grandsire Rymnik. Rymnik is also present in the pedigree of Dardziling (Weil/Marbarch pedigrees), and Fetysz (modern Polish pedigrees).
Rymnik’s name is scattered throughout Part 2 of the 1903 Russian Arabian Stud Book.
After we get through the primary and secondary sources from 1799 to 1902, which will take a while, I’ll publish the 1903 Russian Arabian Stud Book.
Dear Lyman and Edouard: Looking forward to the above info. coming out about Skowronek and Rymnik. Edouard, is fetysz also in Amurath Sahibs pedigree and Ofirs’?
best
Bruce Peek
Bruce, I can probably answer that.
Amurath Sahib (1932 GS) does not trace back to Fetysz, and his daughter, Amurath Sahib (1952 GM) does not trace back to Fetysz on her dam’s side either. As far as I can tell, they’re pretty unrelated to the lines that produced Fetysz.
Ofir (1933 BS) does not trace back to Fetysz, but they do share some common ancestors, which I am not educated enough to really comment on. These include: Handzar (1882 CS), Heraldyka (1868 ?M).
Dear Lyman,
the meaning of the expression, “Hajeen” is a bit more nuanced, I think. As far as I know, the Bedouins use the term “Hajeen” to a product of an Arab stallion and a non- Arab mare. But if the sire is non-Arab and the dam Arabian, the name of the product is “Mukref”.
László
Dear László,
I understood the term Hajin (singular) or Hajeen (plural) to generally apply to any horse of mixed blood. Perhaps Edouard can give more detail if I am missing something on this.
Lyman
In practice, XIXth and XXth century Bedouins did not differentiate between hajeen and mukref. Islamic writers in earlier centuries did.
BTW, in the Arabic language, Hajeen carries the meaning of “alien”.
Also: If as one of the commenters states, “If Lady Wentworth thought Skowronek was pure than why did she invent an Abbas Pasha pedigree for him.” Can the invented pedigree be stated here so we can an idea of the lengths dishonest people would go to in order to cover up their cheating? If it cannot be stated here can you give a source book or article that provides the information?
Best
Bruce Peek
It is so difficult to apply the stated standards of the 1903 Russian studbook, as you have them here. I wonder how many horses in the world could meet them?
Bruce- Wentworth’s claims on Skowronek’s Abbas Pasha heritage are in the second edition of The Authentic Arabian Horse published in 1962. It is also in later editions of the same book.
The same claims are also made in a booklet published in 1957 entitled “The Crabbet Arabian Stud.”
We will get to them and pick apart each claim but the next step will be introducing all the primary and secondary sources from 1799-1910 which has the evidence on the origin of his ancestors.
Lyman
Jeanne-
The written standards for inclusion in Part 1 of the 1903 Russian Arabian Stud Book are about a page long. I’ve shortened it down to one sentence for clarity in this post. You can read them all when its published later this year. You can also look at the horses that made it into Part 1 and those that were in Part 2 for more clarity on the issue.
My guess is that there are about 800-1000 horses globally today that would meet the standard the Russians used in 1903.
Lyman
Why only 800-1000? What about the Egyptian horses?
Well then the thing to do is find out who are some of the 800 to 1000 horses and go and get them so they can be safe havened and satellite breeding farm bred, so to speak. Then start a program of rotating outcrosses among them, And yes bite the bullet and start an alternative studbook with an open publicly exposed authentication process. Much like the way the Syrian studbook was set up: committees of experts testifying about a given horses provenance. Just to put some pepper down the shirts of the people who lobbied against the Tahawy Asils, give them the places of honor at the top of the list. Also include genetic samples plainly stating which horses are related to each other and what kinds of scientific evidence was used to reach those conclusions.
It would also be interesting to know about the general level of purity of most of the general list horses too, assuming a reliable accurate way of determing their purity could be found..
best
Bruce Peek
For example, let’s say a stallion came out of the desert known as “Saqlawi.” In 1903 the Russians would ask “Saqlawi what?” Where did he come from? What is his marbat? Who bred him?
If you could not answer those questions to their satisfaction, then “Saqlawi” would be placed at at the same level as the horses of known mixed blood. There are examples of horses just like this in Part 2 of the 1903 Russian Arabian Stud Book.
I really don’t understand the energy still put in this topic – everybody knows by now that Skowronek was probably not asil, as were numerous other horses that were registered as pure bred Arabians in the 19th century and later.
Put your money where your mouth is and start a seperate register for asil Arabians that can be traced back 100% to the desert & their marbat. But that would open other discussions of course, since many of today’s Arabians considered as asils cannot be traced to their marbat either. Considering Denouste, it would for sure permanently exclude all French & Magribian lines …
Accept that nobody is willing to exclude Skowronek lines anymore from the studbooks (otherwise they would never have allowed the 30Maria lines in much later stadium) so stop wasting your energy on matters that are long know & accepted and make instead work of a separate studbook for asil Arabians to give them the platform they deserve. The real challenge lies there …
Not all North African lines have Denouste..
Patrick-
What I don’t understand is why you keep choosing to comment on posts about this topic.
Why not just scroll down?
Lyman
Lyman, maybe same reason why you keep poking in a subject that is no longer relevant. The pure bred Arabian is what it is and no matter how much you poke, nobody is going to throw out Skowronek from the pure bred Arabian studbooks or any other partbreds that got included. Like I said, instead of poking into something that is not going to change, try preserving the asil Arabian by creating a separate studbook for them. That’s the only thing that will distanciate them from the pure breds. How many asils will really remain if tracing in all lines to a desert marbat is the criteria and when they are in a studbook based upon purity, it won’t be enough to shout my horse is purer than yours – then it’s time to show what they can do as well. An almost impossible challenge, that’s why it’s easier to sell a few horses that can barely trot by shouting but they’re from the purest marbat.
Edouard, perhaps there are some left without Denouste but probably not many.
I mentioned Denouste because in your article about him you cleared him of doubts, because of your trust in the people that researched him (although they could not clear the gray zone either) but regardless, Denouste as well as many other horses that you consider asil are at least kadish. Without studbook it’s easy to make assumptions but if you have to start using really objective criteria, it won’t be easy to lay the base for an asil studbook at all.
What will you do with today’s asils tracing to the hamadie, weil & inshass horses. Good enough for an asil studbook, although they’re objectively speaking only kadish? Or Abeian 111 … if I remember the discussion here, although factual kadish, Jeanne Craver’s point was that he was undoubtely asil because of “eliminating factors” …
If you read up the thread, you will notice that I said “It is so difficult to apply the stated standards of the 1903 Russian studbook, as you have them here. I wonder how many horses in the world could meet them?”
The definition of asil can be as never ending as the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin, as my husband used to say.
Patrick-
A few points:
1. Kadish, as I understand it, is not an objective criterion. It is reasonable for two people to hold differing views on the same horse. One thinking it is Kadish, the other considering it pure.
2. Hajin on the other hand is objective. Known mixed blood is not pure. Period.
3. Some may think the way the Russian’s thought about it in 1903 is correct. It is completely reasonable to have a different point of view than they did on what you consider a horse of unknown origin. It’s relevant in the case of Skowronek in that his dam was registered in a stud book in the section for horses of mixed blood and unknown origin. Why no one payed attention to it is another question which will be examined once all the evidence prior to 1910 is presented.
4. Skowronek gives us a great case study on what NOT to do in the future. In order to not repeat the mistakes of the past, we must know what they were and how they materialized.
5. During the course of my research into Skowronek, I have spent a considerable amount of time thinking about what type of system could replace the current governance model that exists in the Arabian horse world today. I have some ideas but I’m not ready to put them out for public comment right now. All I will say is that the stud book system as it currently exists is static. The Bedouin system of maintaining breed purity was dynamic. The future must also be dynamic if we are to not repeat the mistakes of the past.
Lyman
Lyman,
My point is simple: there is no way, no matter how much proof against Skowronek or other horses (being partbred), that anything is going to change. The pure bred Arabian by WAHO standards is a “purebred breed/studbook” like the thoroughbred, PRE or Lusitano is. It is not going to change anything, they will never kick-out any horses or even create a distinction between purebred and asils.
Bashing horses like Skowronek like you do on Facebook etc will not help creating any empathie for asil horses either. The smart thing to do is educating breeders of pure breds that their horses are not necessarily tracing to Nejdi Arabians and that history teaches us that the real thing is required to regenerate pure breds with asils to maintain the original breed characteristics. This practice already existed in the Middle-East. Plenty of historical references like Rzewuski’s distinction between the original Nejdi Koheilan and the Koheilans in the north. Guarmani made a similar point. The best reference are of course the Poles who made every half century an expedition to the desert to buy regenerators and in our times they regenerated by using half-Egyptians (Palas) and straight Egyptians.
I’m very convinced that the only way for the asil Arabian to survive and thrive (!) is in the first place to give him a separate studbook (can be double registered) in order to create a clear distinction and in second place to proof he can stand his grounds agains pure breds in sport, shows, etc.
Patrick-
I don’t mean to sound offensive, but you sound like someone that is old. The old die and the young inherit the earth. Things always change. In fact, they never stop changing.
I can’t help but point out your assertion about the distinction of Northern vs. Southern Arabian horses is completely wrong. I have found this point of view quite common among the “Straight Egyptian” breeding community. Nagel in particular repeats this in his books. I think it’s complete garbage and does not pass the common sense test. Horses flowed with the Bedouins wherever they went. It’s all mixed up. There is no such thing as distinct Northern or Southern breeds of Arabian horses, or even Northern or Southern “types” of horses. Edouard has written about this topic on this blog several times.
Rzewuski and Guarmani were foreigners who spent periods of time in Arabia, but they were not Arabs. I would place more faith in references from actual Arabs than I would from foreign travelers. If a foreigner came to your country and lived there for a few years, maybe even learned your language to a passable level, then they write a book on your country and suddenly become an expert on your country that foreigners all quote telling you about your own culture what would you think about that? Probably that it is bullshit.
Lyman
Denouste, asil? When did I ever say that? Come on.. read back here, you even commented I was being a French politican :)) http://daughterofthewind.org/the-denouste-issue/
All one can say about this horse is that he had no English TB blood, like other French pseudo-Arabians, but there is a lingering hole in the pedigree..
Lyman, it is you who keeps poking in the past with your Skowronek bashing – hoping to achieve what? I never said there was a distinction between northern & southern, only that Rzewuski mentioned that they bred in the north “koheilans” that needed infusion of the “nejdi koheilans” to keep their type. If I recall well, the nejdi koheilan was the real thing and the koheilan traced back to non-asils that by constantly breeding with asils virtually looked the same but nevertheless needed the infusion to avoid degeneration. When he was in Arabia, the Anazeh & Shammar were much further south than when the Blunts were there. Same horses, same tribes, different location.
Edouard, exactly but you did say you considered him asil despite he hole in the pedigree and good enough to include in Al Khamsa. And you refered to many of French & Maghrebian horses with Denouste in their pedigree as asils.
Since WAHO is never, ever going to remove proven partbreds or label the remaining asils, the logical step to preserve & promote asil Arabians is to give them a separate studbook.
But there is a very good reason why this is not happening: it suddenly becomes a lot more complicated because where are you going to draw the line … kick-out the asils by assumption and deductions there are a lot of asils not going to be included. Don’t kick them out and discussion will flare again …
You have already laid it out perfectly in the past http://daughterofthewind.org/unconventional-thoughts-about-a-global-asil-horse-registry/
That’s why it is soo much easier to bash Skowronek
Patrick-
Your assumption is that a stud book similar to those that exist now will help to preserve purity.
History tells us the exact opposite. Every stud book that has ever been created for Arabian horses has had the opposite effect. Instead of preserving purity it has debased or destroyed purity.
Why would this time be different?
Lyman
Dear Lyman: Perhaps I can answer your question. Because none of the other studbooks have ever acknowledged up front that the model or template of the Syrian studbook. Imperial Russian studbook, or the Babolna system, was deemed to be the best way to proceed. Also that many westerners or western based groups have used their own horses purity as an argument to exclude what were reasonably assumed to be asil desertbreds like the Tahawi horses. Imo this should be plainly stated, that past mistakes about the purity of their horses should be admitted, along with publication of their haplotypes- y chromosomes and Maternal dna samples, should also be included, along with the statement that there have been several levels of authentication and that the Al Khamsa criteria of reasonably established evidence would be best.
Something along the lines of the Babolna studbook- herdbook Reportedly it was originally set up with color coded entrys, Green for Asil horses from Arabia, Red for Thoroughbreds
and Black for Lippizaners and country breds. Of course since the period of the late 30’s when reportedly some of the Polish breds began to be included the green entrys were no longer Asil. Acknowledge that this happened and then plainly state that because of the genetic mixing that went on several lines lost their Asil provenance AND THAT THE WISH TO AVOID LOSING PROVENANCE IS THE REASON WHY THE STUDBOOK FOR ASIL HORSES HAS BEEN DEVELOPED.
Finally because Skowronek has been the poster boy for bad examples his conformational pluses and minuses should also be clearly acknowledged. While he did add substance to Judy Wentworths horses many of them also inherited his dumpy short shoulders and low withers which made them functionally long backed and contributed to their crummy movement. Naseem appeared to be an exception.
best
Bruce Peek
Added a small update on Denouste’s marbat for you to review Patrick (http://daughterofthewind.org/the-denouste-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-1536427).
About the French bloodlines I am digging deep into our archives now.
There is no “hole” in Denouste’s pedigree but several ancestors could use a little bit more info to fulfill correctly his pedigree. Namely, Adjali’s records in the Italian Studbooks, Hussein’s detailed strain and owner from Pompadour’s archive and Emmon’s actual import records from England.
As for the French bloodlines, it is correct we have some non Asil bloodlines but they are absolutely unrelated to Denouste. They are to be found through the descent of 1913 stallion Danbik (Farid and Dybaldine by Meke & Dibphide – https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/danbik) who are very well spread among the global Arabian horse population including French and Russian bloodlines. Danbik’s tail female traces back to the mare called La Duchesse (1824) who was sired by the stallion Le Coquet (a purebred Hungarian horse bought by the French in 1808 for remount purpose – all of which I have found proof about in the French Archives, French Journals and French Studbooks – although it was erased in the 1850’s from the later for political reasons). To date, this is the only proof of non Asil bloodlines in the French Arabians. So if you want to spot one, let’s just pick the right 😉
Bruce, I agree
Babolna is perhaps the best example – they had their Shagya’s they could experiment with & breed the ideal western performance Arabian (corresponding in a way to Rzewuski’s “Koheilan”) and had a strict asil breeding program alongside (Rzewuski’s “Nejdi Koheilan”) that they used to regenerate their Shagya’s as well. It took only 1 director to destroy the asil breeding at Babolna, never understood what possesed him to start using Polish & Russian stallions. The older Babolna asil lines probably didn’t market that well but their Egyptian lines always were well sought after.
I didn’t mention Denouste by coincidence … the silence of the advocates of the otherwise so loud advocates of the French/Maghribian lines says it all. Will they accept that their last “asils” are excluded from their status because of a far away lingering hole in Denouste’s pedigree or can it be overwritten by the potential integrity of the breeders that bred with the lingering whole?
When one translates Edouard’s careful selected words “All one can say about this horse is that he had no English TB blood, like other French pseudo-Arabians, but there is a lingering hole in the pedigree.” that translates to me the the lingering whole could have been an asil Arabian or an oriental horse (high percentage partbred Arabian) which basically puts this illusive ancestor of Denouste on the same level as the Oriental horses captured by the Poles on the battlefield from the Turcs which probably formed the base of their oriental breeding program and the Polish foundation mares without marbat.
Perhaps Edouard has not mentioned by exact words that Denouste is or isn’t asil (haven’t checked) but several French/Maghrebian Arabians with Denouste in their pedigree have been advocated on this blog french asils. Don’t have time to look them up, but there are several like Mauvy’s Ourour and his offspring.
The main reasons why nobody dares to put a global registery for asil Arabians on the table is because it can only happen with either a definition (excluding many, many of today’s asils), either by defining an acceptable foundation stock that will include asils with lingering holes but accepted “by deduction” or “integrety of people involved”. One can assume that on the latter a workable group can be brought together but because of the lingering holes it is a could be WAHO II (imagine all the work & troubles to create such studbook and a couple decades later a Skowronek II has been included when the lingering whole is proven not asil).
Just look at the Pyramid Society and the Exochorda/Kars discussion – although Exochorda and Kars were without question asil, they had to abandon their definition and add a list of foundation horses so that Exochorda could remain straight Egyptian and Kars could not.
And that’s why it is soo much easier to bash Skowronek but maybe it worth to invest your efforts in first clearing the lingering holes in a few of the horses considered on this blog as asils. Clearing lingering holes will bring a workable definition for a global asil registery a bit closer.
Don’t know why but my first message did not work…anyway…
As for Denouste I have updated the page Edouard linked above so you can check how far we are know to the very best of my knowledge on Denouste’s status. There is no HOLE of any kind in his pedigree. Only a couple of his ancestors one could use a little bit more knowledge about them, namely regarding Adjali, Hussein and Emmon. Actually, Denouste shares common ancestors with the Babolna horses and you will also see that many of his ancestors are the very same Nejdi horses praised by Rzewuski (he himslef was having close contact with the Frenches for importation purposes).
Don’t take me wrong there is non Asil bloodlines within the French old blood. And I got the final details from my latest research at the French Archives. But it is absolutely unrelated to Denouste. The one you might want to talk about is this stallion https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/danbik. Indeed not Asil because of the Hungarian blood of Le Coquet. To date this is the only non Asil bloodline with living descent today that can be proved to be non Asil.
Thank you, Amélie! That was a good comment. Please remember that I would love to have an article from you on your research!
Hi Amelie,
I think this is a fantastic exercise of pulling together information (some of it new, some of it old, some of it speculative) about specific horses in the pedigree of the most influential Arabian horse of all time (Denouste). I thing it should become a thread of its own under a separate blog entry, so we continue discussing this. A lot of that primary research is original.
Having said that, I want to clarify that the holes in the pedigree of Denouste (actually, in the pedigree of his ancestor Burkeguy and more specifically in that of Burkeguy’s ancestor Aissa) are not about the asil/non asil status of any of the ancestors. It is about whether some of these ancestors actually mated each other and produced the horses the pedigrees say they produced.
Example 1: it’s about whether Bou Maza actually bred Kebira to produce the elder Fatouma
Example 2: it’s about whether Adjali bred the elder Fatouma to produce Aissa.
As you know these horses were registered in different places than each other (Italy, France) and some of them were present in different countries/continents at the time they were said to have been bred to each other. Here lies the “hole”.
I am quite certain your research will fill it, and have questions to ask you there. Perhaps you can start a separate thread about Aissa (where the rubber hits the road in the Denouste pedigree), so we can fully be the nerds that we are!
Bruce Peek wrote:
“Also: If as one of the commenters states, “If Lady Wentworth thought Skowronek was pure than why did she invent an Abbas Pasha pedigree for him.” Can the invented pedigree be stated here so we can an idea of the lengths dishonest people would go to in order to cover up their cheating? If it cannot be stated here can you give a source book or article that provides the information?”
Somewhere I have some photos of some of the hand drawn Wentworth pedigrees that show the ‘pedigree extension’ for Skowronek.
Patrick: which of the Babolna directors put the Kuhaylan Zaid daughters to the Polish and Russian Stallions? I thought by Rambauers(sp) time the deed had already been done. But I could be wrong. Zaid was a hell of a stallion.. In my opinion using a mare line bred to him to get Khemosabi- essentially an outcross of a Cmk line, with old Egyptian, and the best eastern european blood,developed by arguably the best breeder of the 19th century- von Pettko de Szandter really provided a template example for others to follow.
best
Bruce Peek
Amelie: I haven’t read into detail yet but filling the holes in the pedigree of presumed asil Arabians is of course much more valuable than wasting time & energy in the Skowronek-alikes that will never be pulled out of WAHO pedigrees. One major discussion less to come to an asil studbook.
Bruce: it was in fact Rombauer I was thinking about – it’s possible they already used Polish stallions on the old Babolna lines but it was Rombauer who destroyed most of the asil Egyptian lines at Babolna.
Dear Patrick: Wow.. Oh man!! I had heard good things about Rombauer from Shagya breeders who valued the genetic contribution of the new egyptian mares to the u.s. Shagya genepool.
Bummer! Sigh! Oh well live and learn.
best
Bruce Peek
A final thought: The original ancestors that met the Russian studbook of 1903 criteria are 100% Arabian. The others are 0% Arabian.. Well Lyman my question is in evaluating Skowroneks pedigree which were the ones that we know were partbreds and which ones were Asil?
This is important because the reality is most people here in the u.s. that have arabs have greater or lesser blends of the major breeding groups be they Crabbet, Egyptian, Spanish Cmk, Polish, often with a good percentage of original american foundation blood- Davenports,Hamidie society etc.
Also there are some farms that are blending in some of the blue star Saudi importations to get size and movement for performance horses.
best
Bruce Peek