The Denouste issue

By Edouard Aldahdah

Posted on December 13th, 2011 in France

The status of the 1921 French Arabian racehorse Denousté is a thorny question with which I have been grappling for a long time. I believe I have now reached closure on the issue, and I feel relieved, even if no new information has surfaced on the horse.

There were always two issues about this horse: the first concerned a distant antecedent in his pedigree; and the second was about some French breeders breeding their Arabian mares to part-bred Arabian stallions and claiming the offspring were by Denousté.

The issue of his pedigree is easier to get a grasp of: Denousté was born in 1921 at Mr. Lalague in South Western France, and was by the desert-bred stallion Latif, a Hamdani Simri from the Fad’aan Bedouins, and out of Djaima, who was  by Khouri, a desert-bred Ubayyan Sharrak also from the Fad’aan, and out of Dame Tartine, who was by Burkeguy (see below) out of Déesse, who was by the desert-bred Emir Selim and out of Berthe, who was the offspring of two desert-bred imports: the stallion Nahr El Kebir and the mare Merjane, a Mukhalladiyah by strain, imported from the Naqab (Negev) desert near Gaza. It’s a pedigree that’s relatively close to the desert, in general, with the exception of Burkeguy.

The 1899 stallion Burkeguy, bred by Mr. Horment, was the only French bred stallion in Denouste’s pedigree, at a time when French breeders favored imported desert-bred horses over home bred ones. Burkeguy’s ancetress Aissa, who was the maternal grand-dam of his sire Fez, is the main culprit in his pedigree.

If you follow Burkeguy’s pedigree on (which is fairly accurate in this case), you will notice some line-breeding to the mare Kalifa, of the respected Souberbielle breeding program, but also to the desert-bred stallion Djerash, a Saqlawi Jadran. You will also notice his great grand-dam Aissa, an 1870 grey mare.

Aissa was bred by Friar Houneau, in Algeria, by Adjali out of his mare Fatouma, and brought to France in 1873, where she was registered and bred on. Her entry is in the French Stud Book Volume IV, page 487.

Her sire Adjali is not registered, however, and only appears in his daughter registration entry, as imported (to Algeria) in 1868, presumably from the Arabian desert. At that time, French authorities in colonial Algeria did not maintain formal studbooks until Volume V (1874);  the Arabian horses that were bred in Algeria before that date were never registered, except when they were imported to France, only their progeny were registered.

Aissa’s dam Fatouma is not registered in the French Studbook either, and is only recorded in her daughter’s entry, and that’s because she, too, was not bred in France, but in Algeria. In her daughter’s entry, she is recorded as being born in 1862 by “Bou Maza et Kebira, Arabes”. The word “Arabes” in the context French horse-breeding activities in Algeria typically means “from Arabia” or “Original Arab”.

There is a Bou Maza active as a stallion at that time, not in Algeria but in France, bred in 1847 by famous French breeder Mr. De Nexon by Hussein out of Amine. There are several Kebiras, though, the best match being the one bred by Pompadour in 1844 (Mesrur x Furette by the grand Massoud, founder of the Anglo-Arabian breed); this Kebira would have been 18 when she foaled Fatouma.

The most likely scenario here is that Kebira left Pompadour when the Stud’s broodmare band was dispersed, in foal to Bou Maza; that she was taken to Algeria by this Friar, or someone else (Nicole de Blomac argues that the trip to Algeria may have taken place in the context of Empress Eugenie’s visit, when lots of people and horses went back and forth between France and its new colony);

Kebira’s daughter Fatouma was then foaled in Algeria (that’s a fact) in 1862; and when she became an adult mare, she was bred to Adjali by the Friar, and foaled Aissa in 1870; the friar then took Aissa back to France in 1873, where she was registered.

It seems to me like one of these stories so common to Arabian (and other breeds) registries in their early days, when horse registrations fall between cracks because of clerical errors, where changes in registration systems and procedures mean that some horses are registered posthumously, and in the absence of export documents between a country and its colony, some information is lost in the way.

Context here needs to be taken into consideration. It’s not too different a situation from that of some of the Hamidie imports in the USA, or that of *Abbeian 111, or more recently some of the Inshass horses in Egypt.

On top of this, according to Jean-Claude Rajot, both Admiral Cordonnier and Robert Mauvy went through the above research and documents when they chose to breed from select Denousté offspring. Jean-Claude testified that both men were so thorough and systematic in their research that they had no qualms about cutting out horses that did not match their standards of purity — and they put the threshold very high.

Jean-Claude also told me that both Cordonnier and Mauvy researched that Friar’s credentials, and found nothing that would justify breeding his mares to non-Arabian horses (e.g., Barb or English TB) for any reason; that innocuous Friar was not involved in racing, and he was not breeding horses for profit, or to sell them for that matter.

He also mentioned that while Cordonnier and Mauvy did not consider Denousté to be a prototype of the classic Arabian horse they liked, they thought he was a good horse, with bona fide origins, and they selectively used his progeny in both their breedings. In Mauvy’s case, it was the stallion Saadi (Ourour x Oureah by Ghalbane Or.Ar.), whose sire Ourour was out of Denousté grand-daughter (Gafir in Ourour’s tail female was sent from Tunisia to France for a breeding to Denousté); In Cordonnier’s case, it was the stallion Kriss II (Denousté x Kenia by Kerro).

As to the mention in Mauvy’s little book that the “use of [the stallion] Abel (Denousté x Alicante by Kerro) [by Pompadour] was unfortunate”, Jean-Claude said it was a reference to his progeny having disappointed Mauvy, rather than a remark on Abel’s pedigree origin.

That said, Jean-Claude mentioned that both Mauvy and Cordonnier were aware of at least three or four specific instances where horses registered as sons and daughters of Denousté were in reality by part bred Arabians, and that they were careful to stay away from these.

All in all, I am rather satisfied with Denousté’s status as a bona fide Arabian horse, and hence with his descendants purebred Arabian status.

43 Responses to “The Denouste issue”

  1. “All in all, I am rather satisfied with Denousté’s status as a bona fide Arabian horse, and hence with his descendants purebred Arabian status.”

    Superb work Edouard altough your conclusion sounds like you’re planning to go into French politics? So no real asil status for Denouste? Perhaps we should re-define the French & Tunesian “asils” on this blog as “post-Asils”.

  2. I didn’t know the Abbeian 111 story, just looked it up. Interesting, I always presumed that the original Davenports came along with a hujjah.

  3. Hi Edouard,

    Thank you for your excellent historical work on Denousté. You’ve made a great job !
    I hope this post will definitively close the debate on this horse.

    Guillaume Lambert.

  4. Patrick, I know you’re disappointed but it’s not politics; i am just not sure that ‘asil’ is the right concept which applies in this case.

    ‘Asil’ is an Arab cultural concept; it refers to those horses and their descendants which Bedouins said were asil, e.g., the Davenports, the Blue Stars imports from Saudi Arabia, most Blunt imports. I am not even sure an Egyptian foundation mare like Halabia (in every single Egyptian pedigree today) qualifies in this regard.

    Re: Densoute, all I am saying is that I am now convinced that the horse has no trace of non-Arabian blood in his pedigree [e.g., unlike Skowronek or Flipper], and that he is a purebred Arabian with only Arabian horses in his pedigree that can be reasonable assumed to go back to the Arabian desert. That’s the Al Khamsa definition by the way; if otherwise eligible Denouste descendants were to come to North America today, I would proposed them for inclusion in the Al Khamsa Roster.

    Re: Abbeian 111 there is an original hujjah for him, in Arabic, from davenport’s importation of 1906. It’s just that there was some debate which I think was later resolved, on whether he was indeed the horse in hujjah, or another horse from the earlier Hamidie importation of 1893.

  5. Hello Edouard, not dissapointed but your careful phrasing creating a grey zone was really striking 🙂

    I agree with you that based upon previous standards phrased in this blog he doesn’t fall in the asil category & agree that there are others that shouldn’t have received an asil status of Al Khamsa or Asil Club based upon same standards.

    BTW, I didn’t know about the “reasonable” in the Al Khamsa definition – I was only familiar with the definition of the asil club (which speaks of tracing to desert Arabia in all lines if I recall well). Doesn’t that makes it more or less the original WAHO definition before somebody stirred things in Germany on the Polish pedigrees – a woman, but don’t remember who (Schiele, Schele?)

    Not easy question where to put the line, especially considering that the French have brought some of the best horses out of the desert yet have at the same time a tradition of registering anglos as purebreds. Still learning but I can understand that the problem between the Tunesian arabians and Asil Club goes beyond Barr.

    The Abbeian 111 stuff I read this morning was a grayer zone than you are describing now – was written by Charles Craver, title with Noah in it, will try to find it again

  6. See §5 below

    *ABBEIAN #111 grey stallion reported as foaled in 1889 by Arabian Horse Club studbooks beginning with Vol. I (1913). In Vol. I his strain is given as “Abbeyan Dahra.” By Vol. III (1927), the strain is changed to “Abeyan-Dahwah,” and in Vol. IV it is “Abeyan-Dahwak.” Vol I does not indicate his importer, but by Vol. III it is given as Homer Davenport, 1906. In Vol. III his markings are given as “none.”

    There is a long-time question among students of Arabian horse breedings as to whether this is the same horse as a grey stallion named “Abbeian” and later referred to as “Abeya” or “Abeyan” which was imported by the Hamidie Society for the Chicago World’s Fair of 1893. In either case, by long-term usage. *ABBEIAN #111 as registered is considered a Davenport bloodline.

    The Hamidie Society horse is listed in the Jan. 4, 1894, auction catalog of Tattersall’s of Chicago, Limited, as follows: “Abbeian, Grey Stallion 14 3/4 hands, foaled 1888; white nose; bred Abeyan-Dahra.” The Hamidie Society Abbeian apparently found his way into the stable of Peter Bradley of Hingham, Massachusetts, and thence to the ownership of Homer Davenport, who referred to him in his catalog titled “The Worlds Fair Arabians” of 1906-1907 under the name “Abeya.” “bred 1888.” The term “bred” is often used by Davenport to indicate “foaled.” Probably that is the meaning intended.

    *ABBEIAN is registered out of sequence with the other original Davenports, but then, so is *MASOUD #64. Three horses known to have been in the desert importation of 1906 were not registered at all, so he may have been one for which registration had been delayed for some reason. No importation document exists for *ABBEIAN. That is also true for a number of other horses in the importation. No strain is given for the sire of *ABBEIAN, which is also true for a number of the other horses for which there is importation documentation, including some of the most highly regarded. Frequently such horses are registered as having sire and dam of identical strain, which is possibly correct.

    The case has been made, most recently by Gladys Brown Edwards, that *ABBEIAN #111 and the Hamidie Society horse were the same animal, but that is not a comfortable case. If *ABBEIAN #111 was a Hamidie Society horse, the Arabian Horse Club could just as well have registered him accordingly. Carl Raswan in entries 31 and 32 of his Index lists *ABBEIAN and the Hamidie Society horse as different individuals, distinguishing between birth dates, importers, strain names, and calling attention to the “white nose” of the Hamidie Society horse. Raswan had personal contact with the Bradley breeding establishment in arranging the purchase of JADAAN #196, a son of *ABBEIAN, and he subsequently had opportunities to know JADAAN well, caring for him, writing for publication about him, and even doubling for Rudolf Valentino as his rider in the movies. Raswan’s friends and foes alike would agree that the man was fascinated almost to obsession with the pedigrees of Arabian horses. It would have been completely out of character for him to have had close contact with JADAAN, both in purchase and as a horseman, without informing himself as to the obvious pedigree data concerning the horse’s sire, *ABBEIAN #111, and at that early point in Arabian breeding in America, the data should not have been difficult to obtain.

    The Blue Arabian Horse Catalog of Jane Llewellyn Ott enters *ABBEIAN as being imported by Davenport. Carol Woodbridge Mulder in Volumes I and II of Imported Foundation Stock of North American Arabian Horses treats the subject rather extensively, concluding that there were two horses. She accounts for the non-sequential registration of *ABBEIAN and his absence from Davenport’s farm catalog on the grounds that he might have been a gift horse received on the trip by one of Davenport’s companions on the expedition. (38) The same explanation could also account for the absence of an importation document for him.

    The Douthit index cards for Davenport horses were probably authoritative for what was known on the subject through approximately 1950. They treat *ABBEIAN #111 as imported by Davenport.

    *ABBEIAN #111 had six foals. He is best known for his son JADAAN, who fell out of favor with some of those recording history of Kellogg breeding, but nevertheless sired twenty-one foals – a production which has had a good influence on Arabian breeding. Among *ABBEIAN’s daughters, SHERIA #110 is widely distributed in the breed through her daughters SHERLET and POKA, who produced AATIKA and TRIPOLI.


  7. The article quoted was written in the 1970s, and much information has been researched since then. The writeup in The Annotated Quest in 1992 contained most of that new information, although Edouard has continued helping us with the nuances of translation since that time. The simplest thing is for me to quote the last part of the *Abbeian entry in Al Khamsa Arabians III, the most recent discussion, 2008:
    The Davenport importation of 1906 is known to have consisted of 27 horses. Because of eliminating factors, the only one of the group which could have been registered as *Abbeian 111 was a grey stallion foaled c1900. This horse was presented by Ahmad al-Hafiz [transliterated by Davenport as Akmet Haffez] to Jack Thompson, one of Davenport’s associates on the desert trip of 1906. Photographs of Thompson’s horse taken during the trip have points of similarity as to head, neck, color, markings and rear leg structure and stance to photographs taken some years later at the Hingham Stock Farm of an old horse identified as *Abbeian 111.

  8. “Because of eliminating factors, …” And how many grey stallions did pass in Davenports besides the original importation group & their descendants? I presume none if “eliminating factors” were used to determine the “reasonable doubt”?

    I’m a bit disappointed in ‘assility’ – it’s clearly not a science and as always what lies beneath history is very difficult to get to.

    I have been reading lately a lot of German books published in recent years about Thuringen and Hans Kammler. Amazing how the in the end number 2 Nazi has been completely erased from (the victor’s) history. German & some American historians are currently trying to rebuild the real history of the end of WW2 are coming to possible conclusions based upon ‘eliminating factors’ all seem very logical but without the secret archives in America they only make interesting alternative history.

    Yesterday I heard on television Poetins comments on how American drones stopped Ghadaffis escape, how special forces led the rebels to him and might have been involved in his execution. Only 2 months ago I told my wife that the Lybian revolution was not a Lybian revolution but that we (US supported by France & Belgium) were behind it. She laughed at me, I defended that a revolution always has a real leader. Everybody had heart about Castro before he was victorious, everybody had heard of Kabila before he was victorious but nothing was know about the Arab leaders that managed to bring down a well-settled guy with a very modern army.

    Apparently with so much other agendas that are being kept ‘reasonable doubt and ‘eliminating factors’ are unavoidable to recover history but who will tell really…

    I started with pure bred Arabians and had a good friend breeding asil straight Egyptians who was well obsessed with straight Egyptians and the purest of their lines (he would never have wanted anything to do with meanwhile cleaned-up pedigrees like Hanan or Baheia). There was one of his stallions he mentioned one of his stallions as unique because of his nobility, temperament, silk coating etc. I was more focussed on his back and less than perfect croup. It was a very hot stallion and I was was very surprised how sweet, intelligent, easy to handle, intelligent and approachable the foals were (compared with mine from Russian & Crabbet bloodlines that were good characters in the end but needed some handling before they were ‘cool’). This made me sent mares to an Ibn Moniet El Nefous son he imported a bit later and that I did like in conformation and was smitten that the foals were so much sweeter, easier to handle and approachable than before.

    In the end it lead to the purchase of a couple asil SE mares and they were wonderful but didn’t make a real difference compared with my pure breds except their pedigrees.

    That was until I acquired a straight Egyptian stallion that was really different, silk like skin with veins popping up, intelligence far above the average Arabian, in fact it was the first time I owned Arabian that perfectly corresponded to Rzewuski’s description of the Nejdi Koheilan and I had to think back about my friend and his preference for that least perfect stallion because of his presence, skin & intelligence.

    Like the stallion of my friend he had many faults but oozed desert type like no other horse I had seen before. I remember a certain Daniel Wigger on the SE forum about my stallions grandsire who apparently had quite a bit of faults but had such presence that if he were available next to any other stallion today, he would not hesitate for a second to breed with him.

    The straight Egyptian mares I got to know with my friend reminded me a lot of the Tunesian mares I saw as a youngsters in a few studs in the South of France and even today have a particular mare branded in my head.

    I was by then convinced about the ‘asility’ and difference between Arabian horses.

    Meanwhile, a lot of books and discussions later, I’m still convinced of the difference but less that all of today’s asils are really descending of the purest blood.

    With exception of the well-documented imports coming directly from esteemed like the Davenports (or the Turkish foundation horses), I have always doubted that all the horses the Europeans or Americans brought out of the desert were Nejdi Koheilans – taken into consideration that so many writers wrote about the bedu also breeding pure breds Polish style based upon purest stallion but descending to more common stock, there is no reason to assume they only sold their purest mares to westerners.

    I was particularly struck by the comment of Teymur that the Blunts bought their first horses from Turcs and without hujjah – don’t know if it was like that but anyway it underscores the idea that lied in the back of my head that not every imported original Arabian was necessarily of purest blood.

    A few weeks ago Teymur wrote in the ‘post-arabian’ topic “let’s look forward into the future and not dwell in the past’ followed by Matthias who said ‘we really need to dwell in the past ‘cause the way of life the Arabian horse created doesn’t exist anymore”.

    Yesterday while hearing Poetin on the news (about the American/Nato intervention in the Ghaddaffi excecution) I was also reading Betty Finke’s article “Full circle” in the Arabian Magazine. I think she’s reading this blog as well by the way 🙂 She described how European nobility brought the pure bred Arabians out of the desert, how the obviously original Arabian was changed to our taste and handling, how the Arabian horse almost disappeared from his homecountries and how the Arabic princes when re-discovering part of their tradition had decided to re-import the Western taste Arabian instead of what remained of the original stock (the pictures of Turki Al Saud’s Nejdi Stud indicate it was not impossible).

    I think Teymur is right, it’s time to look forward into the future and not dwell in the past. The Arabian horse was man-made yet man doesn’t have to survive in the desert or raid other tribes on horse back – the way of life that created the original Arabian is gone. Blunt and other European writers already predicted the extinction of the original Arabian at the end of the 19th century – it’s a miracle they survived until today.

    I like the Al-Khamsa definition better that Asil Club … reasonable doubt … since ‘asility’ is apparently not an exact science, reasonable doubt is really good (I’m not convinced of ‘eliminating factors’ however.

    I disagree with Matthias about the need to dwell in the past – there is nothing so important than history to determine the future and avoid mistakes of the past. However with the way of life gone that created the original Arabian, the original Arabian has no future either. To survive it has to find his place in modern times, it should treasure its original characteristics as far as possible but it has above all to adapt.

    The asil Egyptians have in a way, they do no longer resemble the horses that were imported during the fifties and sixties but they have found their place with both riders as show people. Good or bad is a subjective opinion but fact remains that this asil community is thriving (even although most SE breeders don’t know the word asil yet)

    I’m still very curious about the Turkish breeding programs – it could still be the largest asil group of horses and nobody besides the Turcs themselves seems to know much about them. They were based upon the finest original stock still available at that time. I think it would be interesting to compare pictures of the original stock with their descendants today. For almost a century they are bred for flat racing, received better food than their original ancestors but are bred in comparable climate than their original ancestors. That’s pretty much Mauvy’s dream, except the shorter distance in flat racing that the endurance test Mauvy was talking about.

    Do you remember Crusader? A pedigree descending without reasonable doubt to desert stock, extremely typey and yet very big (almost 16 hands), a show champion, a racewinner and back home used to round-up deer. A beautiful, versatile athlete … the way Arabians should be.

    Since ‘asility’ is apparently not an exact science I’m pretty much convinced that unless a bright mind would stand up, the Asil Club and their rusty minds will die with its founder. I like the ‘reasonable doubt’ position of Al Khamsa – I remember the German & Belgian studbook degrading purebred to partbreds if a pedigree problem arouse but it was stopped when the impact of the Veragua lines, Skowronek & Polish Arabians in general would have to be dealt with.

    It would be nice to see an organisation in the tradition of the original WAHO based upon all the horses that could without ‘reasonable doubt’ be traced to desert stock and with statutary power to reduce their registered horses the moment a part-bred ancestor is proven or accept other horses once a presumed part-bred ancestor has been identified purebred after-all.

    The future probably lies in mixing Teymurs and Matthias conclusion: ‘Let’s remember the past and look into the future”. Sounds more or less Prince Turki’s motto looking at these pictures

  9. Boy, I can’t respond to all of that! But the “eliminating factors” referred to in the quote meant that all of the other 26 horses were identified, and therefore “eliminated.”

  10. Patrick, I sympathise with some of your comments.
    However,and I understand that it is the commonly accepted terminology in recent times but I think it inaccurate that ‘desert type’ should be used to mean extreme refined ‘exotic’ Egyptian type.
    To me ‘desert type’ means ‘Bedouin type’ with all that implies in terms of soundness, endurance, intelligence and loyalty.
    The mare that appealed to the aesthetic sensibilities of Egyptian aristocracy would not necessarily be the beloved, tough war mare whom a Ghazi would trust with his life (and who could probably not be bought at any price). I have always felt that the very best mares probably never left the desert. The most highly favoured Bedouin horses were those (to use the phrase I first heard from Hazaim Alwair and which Edouard has elaborated on) of whom it was said ‘blood is never spilled on their backs’, given all that that implies in terms of the physical and moral qualities of the horse it is perhaps the best expression of the Bedouin criteria, which would be different to that of a rich Egyptian buying beautiful horses for a large stud to be handled and managed by staff.
    As for foreign buyers being duped,the Bedouin are very honourable people who take their horses extremely seriously.. but of course it is possible, even probable that some non Asil horses were sold as Asil to outsiders, it must be remembered though that a Bedouin owes loyalty to his family and tribe and that Turks, Europeans, Americans and non Bedouin Egyptians are ALL outsiders.

    Regarding the Blunts, they certainly bought a part Arab whose name I forget (Turkeycock?) in Turkey, before the years of their desert journeys, he was the horse who sparked their interest in the Arab but was never part of their stud. Obviously the horses that they bought from the Bedouin tribes were true desert horses, though the part of the desert in which they lived at the time was under Ottoman control.
    Lady Blunt took the issue of purity extremely seriously and was a remarkably intelligent, meticulous lady of the utmost integrity. She went to great lengths to ensure the purity of the horses in her stud and would eliminate even the most excellent horse from her breeding programme were there the slightest shadow of a doubt in that regard.
    I must also say that I have had a very different experience to you regarding the character of Crabbet horses. Based on both deep long lasting relationships with my own horses (who have proved themselves loyal and generous to an almost unbelievable degree in some extreme circumstances, one actually physically defending me and another being a mare whose extreme intelligence is unsurpassed in my experience)and my experience of 20 years of working with a huge number of Arab horses of various bloodlines and roles in Britain, the Maghreb and Middle East I have to say that Crabbets (in particular) manifest the qualities of intelligence, generosity and loyalty typical of the Arab in full measure and in no way to a lesser degree than the many Egyptian horses that I have had the pleasure to work with.

    (I mean none of this as a negative reflection on the lovely Egyptian horses 🙂 many of whom have been horses that I have loved over the years)

    (re Hujjah, I have some burning questions but need ensure that I have all the information clear in my mind before I comment!)

    As to the comment ‘the original Arabian has no future’,well I believe that the original Bedouin war mare does have a place in this modern world,in my fields for a start, because her qualities fit her to be the most superlative riding horse and dearest friend.

  11. Patrik:

    we have to crate the

    WASAHO world asil arabian horse organisation

  12. I do not mean “exoctic Egyptian type” with “desert type” – I love Rzewuskis description of the Nejdi Koheilan and that horse was the first Arabian that I owned that corresponded exactly to it – a description that many have discarded as fairy tale or him being a bit of a dreamer.

    “As for foreign buyers being duped,the Bedouin are very honourable people who take their horses extremely seriously.. but of course it is possible” I don’t think that the majority of foreign buyers went to the bedu themselves, most bought from traders in the towns.

    “As to the comment ‘the original Arabian has no future’,well I believe that the original Bedouin war mare does have a place in this modern world,in my fields for a start, because her qualities fit her to be the most superlative riding horse and dearest friend.” So do most pure bred Arabians, that’s no argument.

  13. I am sorry Patrick, maybe I misinterpreted your meaning wrt ‘desert’ type but I have so often heard people sighing with admiration over the most modern, extreme, borderline -deformed heads and refering to them as ‘desert’ type, it does not make sense to me.
    Re foreign buyers, you had specifically referred to the Blunts who as you know, did visit the Bedu in the desert and bought their horses there. As for horses purchased by foreigners in towns, I of course agree with you there is a huge margin for error/deception.
    My last point was not meant as an argument!! 🙂

  14. PS In fact though I certainly did not mean my comments as an ‘Argument’ I would in fact like to know why you feel that ”the original Arab has no future” ,to repeat myself I suppose and, I suppose, it is starting to look like I am making an argument 🙂 I feel that the qualities developed by the Bedouin DO fit their horses for a future as a riding horse… THE finest riding horse in my view…. I have elaborated ad nauseam on other threads why I believe that this is so.I am not asking in a confrontational way but with respect I am curious for your views.
    As an example I will use Jenny Lees’ Pearl Island Stud ( Asil Bahraini) and their success in endurance in this country (Britain).
    I am aware that in terms of pedigree etc I am MUCH less knowledgible than anyone else on here… my perspective is as a rider/owner, vet and fairly widely read lifelong devotee of the purebred Arab, so I may be missing the point altogether for which I appologise in advance!!

  15. Lisa,

    My point is simply if you want people to pay attention to the importance between the “reasonable” Asil Arabian and for instance the pure bred Arabians coming from Polish bloodlines (or the ones Argentina & Brazil with 10 lines to Shagya bloodlines), you need to create a market in the first place.

    If a pure bloodline is all that matters the asil Arabian has no future. All Arabians, asil or pure bred, that come from athletic bloodlines can run an average endurance.

    Forgetting about the extreme attraction (in the 19th century the quest to breed cavalery horses that were easier to keep and more enduring + today’s show scene) people have always been attracted to Arabians because they are beautiful & versatile athletes.

    Read the Bette Finke report “Full circle” in the Arabian Magazine, I don’t agree with everything she says but she sure makes a good very, very point to think about!

  16. je pense que l’arabe originel a beaucoup d’avenir.
    Beaucoup de cavaliers sont actuellement déçus des qualités de la majorité des arabes actuels principalement de show sous la selle et en plus,ils sont fragilisés et pas faciles à entretenir.pour moi,c’est de la dégénerescence.Ces personnes là iront sans doute vers une autre race car le mal est fait.
    Bien sur,on ne fera plus la guerre avec des chevaux,ni de razzias pour les bédouins mais les qualités intrinsèques du cheval arabe de guerre nous ont été très utiles et le seront encore soit pour la selle ou la reproduction pour ses qualités de solidité,de sang,de tissus,intelligent avec un mental pouvant faire face à l’adversité et bien sur il faut qu’il soit bien dans sa tete,rustique avec du chic.Bref porter lourd,vite et signale à Patrick,qu’un cheval d’endurance beau ou pas beau porte 7O kgs sur 130 km et 75 kgs pour une 160 kms et la grosse majorité des chevaux ne dépassent pas 15 mains et un pouce.les cavaliers n’ont ni la taille ni le poids jockey.
    Edouard fait un travail remarquable au sujet des lignées et de la pureté de la race arabe,c’est dire repérer tous les flous,faire des enqu^etes au niveau des pedigrees,faire des recoupements,entendre les rumeurs de “saillies de minuit”,les vérifier,voir les photos du cheval et des ancetres etc….Le problème,c’est qu’il y a une très grosse majorité de part bred notoires dans le cheval arabe et cela sur plusieurs courants de sang et en les croisant entre eux,les caractères résolument arabes se diluent encore plus vite dans nos climats et notre façon d’élever souvent dans du coton et rend le cheval comme nous autres humains moins athlétiques et moins solides.
    aujourd’hui,vu une discussion que j’ai eu avec un responsable des haras nationaux,il y a une paire d’années,faire de l’élevage est dépassé,il faut faire du commerce et je lui ai répondu,quand le bon arabe authentique aura disparu,on n’a malheureusement pas les plans comme pour faire une machine ou un batiment,qu’est ce qu’on fait? c’est pas grave,on fera autre chose.Je l’ai aussi entendu d’un éleveur et cavalier de chevaux d’endurance utilisant les étalons course (on sait ce qu’il en ait).Il m’a avoué qu’il y avait beaucoup de déchets mais que ce n’était pas grave,les déchets se vendaient très bien et chers.On profite de l’ignorance d’une grande partie des personnes et de la mode du moment.
    je n’ai pas parlé ici des autres arabes asils ou pas
    faisant des chevaux de selle très convenables.
    Je pense qu’en élevage,aujourd’hui et c’est un trait de notre époque,on voit le profit immédiat et après moi le déluge.

  17. I see what you are saying Patrick, however I am not really in a position to comment……. my own horses are ‘purebred’.
    (However I respect Asil breeding and breeders, and the blatant pollution of Arab blood exemplified by the breeding of horses such as Amer disgusts me.)
    Nevertheless I believe that there will always be a market for a damn good riding horse like a Crabbet, Bahraini or Davenport, ON THEIR OWN MERITS.
    Asil breeders perhaps then need to educate rest of the Arab horse world about the issues of purity, carefully, such that they do not insult or alienate owners of purebred horses but do make potential buyers/mare owners looking for a stallion aware of the question of impurities in some pedigrees such that they may feel more inclined to buy/use an Asil horse.

  18. @Laurence: la majorité du top endurance sont des pur-sang Arabes non-asil – asil ne veut pas nécessairement dire crack endurance, à voir ce que Hussam et les autres Syriens vont faire en endurance. Je ne suis pas au courant des derniers epreuves endurance mais l’epreuve ‘endurance’ annoncé de Hussam ( de 20 km ne vaut rien dans mon opinion – je ne connais pas une expression en français mais en Anglais on dirait ‘a walk in the park.

    Si l’arabe original veut survivre il faut de l’elevage et pour elevage il faut aussi une marché. Si l’arabe original est seulement bon pour l’endurance … je suis désolé mais mes critéres comme amateur du race sont beaucoup plus elevé que ça.

    Toutes mes chevaux (asil et WAHO) doivent être

    1. Typé
    2. Avoir un bon charactère
    3. Intelligent
    4. Performant et surtoutflexible en performance.

    En plus ils le doivent être dans cet ordre, pas de compromis. Pour moi personellement ils doivent en plus avoir un peu de taille – par défault je ne garde pas de PSA en dessus de 1m52 si vraiment exceptionel mais en general je prefère des PSA de 1m55 à 1m60 (je fais moi-même 1m82 et c’est la taille minimum pour être un peu comfortable)

    Avec typé je ne veux pas dire tête concave ou pouvoir gagner en show mais ils doivent immédiatement et sans hésitation être reconnu comme PSA de distance par leur silhouette et mouvements – ça c’est du type pour mois)

    Leur superbe charactère proche de l’homme est pour moi un charactéristique de race absolu, mon deuxième PSA que j’ai elevé et monture fidèle pendant 8 ans ne se laissait un jour plus ratrapper – il a joué avec mes pieds pendant presque une heure – il était vendu dans la semaine par conséquence, pas de compromis!

    N’importe quel pur-sang Arabe doit pouvoir courir une course d’endurance de 60 km mais pour moi ce n’est pas assez – ils doivent tous être un cheval de loisir et pouvoir finir un cross avec petites obstacles naturelles sans lequel il n’a pas de raison d’être. Et certaines ont en plus d’autre qualités, j’en ai qui sautent pas mal, j’en ai qui ont de l’aptitude pour dressage, j’en ai un qui j’hésite d’envoyer au course (au plat) tandis que sont frère est seulement bon pour endurance, j’en ai eu un qui était un exceptionel cheval de dressage et western à la fois, …

    Un Arabe original/asil doit avoir du type, bon charactère et doit être flexible en performance comme n’importe quel autre pur-sang Arabe. Si le pur-sang Arabe original/pure ne peut pas offrir cela il est pour moi inférieur à un PSA WAHO qui a les charactéristques que moi et 95% des amateurs du race recherchent. La pureté de sa pedigree doit etre le plus (the cherry on the cake)

    Pas de marché, pas d’elevage

  19. Patrick 20km is NOTHING, of course, (indeed even 60km is only what a horse will do in his first open season here, it is not even advanced level, we should be talking 160km for a mature horse) the point is that Arnault’s stallion is taking the first steps in what will hopefully be a serious ridden career,remember it takes years to make an endurance horse. Testing breeding horses properly and hard under saddle as the Bedouin so surely did is the only way to maintain the integrity of the breed. This is the reason that I personally am glad to see Arnault set his horse on this path. Although I agree that versatilty is essential and endurance alone does not test the full range of necessary attributes under saddle, I believe the quality of endurance essential in an Arab horse worthy of the name.
    I don’t think that character or athleticism can be separated from ‘type’ they are an integral part of it.
    To render your list another way… an Arab must have ‘type’ this word encompassing all his virtues, the trouble is this unfortunate word has come to represent a few limited physical characteristics in most people’s minds.
    I wholeheartedly with what you say if I had to chose one quality above all of the many virtues of an Arab horse it would be his character, it is who he is, the essence of the breed and what I love, above all.

    Fabbienne vous avez raison, la mode et l’avidite menace l’heritage des milliers des annees.

  20. Je suis cavalière avant tout, fille d’éleveuse, ce qui me permet de monter de bons chevaux, bien faits, bien dans leur tête. Je ne suis pas éleveuse moi-même, même si je donne un avis de cavalier pour l’établissement des croisements.

    Premièrement, avis de cavalière Patrick, si un cheval “joue avec vos pieds”, en général c’est une réaction due à une action d’un humain.

    Deuxièment, un cheval c’est avant tout des jambes et un dos. Si pour certains, l’essentiel est la tête et l’encolure, comme pour d’autres la couleur, ils prouvent juste par ces simples paroles, que ce ne sont que des cavaliers du dimanche, soit da

  21. @Edouard: What an interesting blog you have. I have just finished reading your ‘what is asil’ ( topic again – didn’t read it before ’cause I thought I already knew the meaning of asil but learning every day a bit more I guess.

    I guess Denouste falls completely under ‘Shubuw’ – why aren’t these bedu customs used by Al Khamsa or Asil Club? A subcategory ‘shubuw’ makes the asil Arabian much more credible than ‘reasonable’ assumed to go back to the Arabian desert or ‘because of eliminating factors’ – credibility is very important, the word ‘reasonable’ undermines credibility but apparently there is a perfectly usuable definition available for the Denoustes, Abeian 111 and the Egyptians without hujjah.

    So the French-Tunesians can be defined as ‘shubuw’ rather than ‘full asils’? Very interesting, isn’t it?!

  22. dans les faits, soit dans la philisophie.

    Troisièmement, je demande beaucoup aux chevaux que je monte, beaucoup de galop, de dénivelés, d’équilibre, aussi bien dans les pieds, que dans la tête. Mais j’ai toutefois l’humilité de constater qu’un échec dans un exercice n’est pas dû au cheval, mais à mes propres lacunes, qu’un apprentissage se fait en douceur, et qu’on ne peut exiger de sa monture, ce qu’on est pas prêt à donner soi-même. Je laisse une part de libre-arbitre à mon cheval, il est intelligent, et la mérite. J’aurais un cheval en qui je ne peux pas avoir confiance dans son jugement, je serais déçu. Un des attraits du cheval arabe est que c’est un cheval ayant une relation particulière à l’homme, pardonnant beaucoup si tant est que la faute est excusée.

    J’aime le pur-sang arabe, je suis consciente que le marché est ce qu’il est, il est malheureusement basé sur l’ignorance des potentiels acheteurs, et sur la cupidité de quelques-uns, qui non seulement en profitent, mais la cultivent.
    Pour finir, je n’ai aucun intérêt pour un cheval dont le principal attrait est le type, c’est, comme disent certains, pour moi “la cerise sur le gâteau”, le gâteau étant la conformation et la personnalité d’un cheval, le type n’en étant qu’un aspect superficiel.

    J’ai un cheval qui me correspond, une personnalité hors du commun, un physique de statue équestre (malgré quelques défauts), et un type léger mais présent, et un bon pédigrée. Mettez moi un cheval dont la principale caractéristique est d’être typé, et ma principale réaction sera l’ennui. Je ne suis pas du genre à aimer regarder un cheval au ralenti sur une vidéo, ou un cheval qui ne sait que faire le beau, dont les réactions sont stéréotypées. Donc je recherche dans l’arabe asil la personnalité forte, insoumise, mais apprivoisée, la robustesse, et l’endurance, la présence, chose que je ne retrouve majoritairement plus dans l’élevage arabe occidental.

    Certains parlent de marché, celui-ci aussi existe, et ne demande qu’à se faire connaître. Malheureusement le temps est proche, où aux cavaliers tels que moi, l’offre ne satisfera plus la demande.

    PS: desolée de l’avoir fait en 2 fois, j’ai un clavier un peu trop sensible ^^’

  23. @Severine:

    “Premièrement, avis de cavalière Patrick, si un cheval “joue avec vos pieds”, en général c’est une réaction due à une action d’un humain.”

    Il y a des gens qui dressent leurs chiens avec des bonbons, mes chiens doivent m’obéir à la parole et immédiatement, sans bonbons … il y a des gens qui donnent des carrotes ou sucres pour aller recuperer leurs chevaux, mes chevaux doivent venir à une simple siffle ou cri, sans plus. Un qui ne viens pas à la parole, j’en veux pas. Pas de compromis possible.

    “Deuxièment, un cheval c’est avant tout des jambes et un dos. Si pour certains, l’essentiel est la tête et l’encolure, comme pour d’autres la couleur, ils prouvent juste par ces simples paroles, que ce ne sont que des cavaliers du dimanche”

    C’est vrai mais je suis ét eleveur et passionné par le PSA et ça commence avec du type (type pour moi à rien à voir avec tête et encolure).

    Il peut avoir le meilleur dos et jambes possible mais sans type il ne m’interesse pas.

    Une bonne conformation tombe d’ailleurs sous 4. mais je dois dire que j’ai déjà elevé avec un étalon avec un mauvais sabot parce qu’il avait d’autres qualités que j’estimais tellement et je comptais sur la forte lignée maternelle pour ne pas passer la défault. Sur 2 produits, c’était réussit 2 fois. Par contre des 4 saillies externes faites, 3 poulains avait hérité la défault (je dois dire que dans 2 de ces cas je l’avais predit avant la saillie et conseillé d’utiliser mon autre étalon)

  24. @Severine:

    J’ai peut-etre donné l’impression que des chevaux non-athlétique mais typé m’interessent plus – il faut m’excuser mais le français n’est pas ma langue maternelle.

    Pour resumer: je ne suis pas intéressé dans des pur-sang Arabes qui ne combinent pas types, ont un bon charactère, sont intelligents et performant à la fois. Si j’étais seulement cavalier, le premier charactéristique m’intéressait sans doute moins.

  25. C’est le mot ‘type’ comme j’au dit ci-dessus, qui est au coeur ici.
    Je crois, Patrick, Severine et Fabienne, que nous sommes,plus ou moins d’accord.

    Si ‘type’ veut dire.. ‘L’ARABE’, avec tous que ca veut dire,comprenant tous les qualites de ce cheval supreme; son caractere genereux, courageux, aimant; son structure correct, resistant, harmonieux et si fort pour ses poids; son agilite, endurance; vitesse son loyaute,intelligence et son beaute ..tous….bien.. nous sommes d’acord.

    Si le mot veut dire tete et l’encolure… c’est ridicule, ca rabaisse le cheval.
    (Patrick a deja dit qu’il ne veut dire ca.)
    Un cheval n’importe comment beau qui est maladroit,fragile, lente, du mauvais caractere.. n’a pas du ‘type’ a mon avis.

    En fin je crois il FAUT etre cavalier pour qu’on puisse vraiment apprecier les qualites d’un cheval Arabe,il est, apres tous, le meilleur cheval de selle qui ce monde a jamais vu (a mon avis :)!)
    Le plus on monte le cheval Arabe, et le plus loin et le plus dur, le plus on l’admire et le respecte.
    Les allures flottantes,l’agilite,le reactivite de cooperation, la generosite….c’est incroyable.

    N’oubliez pas,les Bedouins etait cavaliers…absolument, leur vie en dependait et c’est grace a eux que nous avons au jourd’hui tel cheval magnifique.
    Nous devrons etre digne de tel heritage, il faut garder TOUS ses qualites.

    PS Je n’ai pas parle Francais depuis longtemps…voudriez vous bien me pardonner mes erreurs?

  26. Dear Edouard,
    Please tell me that shubbuw (ie as described in the link above Asil but with a yet to be resolved question or issue and thus a mare fit to be bred from but not fit to be the dam of sires) is not the same Shubbuh (in foal/ fit to be bred from) that we discussed several posts ago?!

    Does shubbuh = shubbuw = Davenport’s’chubby’?
    (I hope not…:0!)
    And if they are synonymous does the concept mean…
    a) in foal.
    b) fit to be bred from in the sense of being of a certain high quality.
    C) A stepdown ( though potentially reversible on receipt of further information)from Asil though still fit to be bred from excepting as a dam of sires.
    Again I am asking out of interest and with respect…I know that my horses are not regarded as Asil so I have no axe to grind 🙂

  27. yes it’s Davenport’s Chubby… and it’s your B.

    Shubuw means “can be mated”, “fit to be mated”, and refers to stallions from strains deemed by the tribe to be authentic enough to be bred from. The concept extends from stallions of a certain strain, to the whole strain in general, including the mares, as potential dams of shubuw stallions.

    It certainly does not mean “in foal”, and is not at all a concept one notch below asil.

  28. Now I’m confused (but working until 3:23 am CET might explain it), under ‘shubuw’ you said

    “There are, however, instances where the Asalah of a horse is in dispute, or cannot be proven beyond doubt. This is often the result of missing or incomplete information, or of conflicting accounts by different Bedouins about the origin or provenance of the horse in general, and its strain or marbat in particular. In such cases, the status of the horse and that of all its progeny as Asil is temporarily put ‘on hold’-—though not denied—until further information surfaces or until the disagreement is solved. In the meantime, if the animal concerned is male, he would not be used for breeding; if the animal is female, she would still be used for breeding, but none of her male progeny or descendants would.”

  29. ok, the stallions (and by extension, their dams, so both mares and stallions in the end) deemed “shubuw” are those asil Arabians which the tribes consider authentic beyond doubt, and so they mated them. They are “from the house”, “homebred”, so to say, everyone in the tribe knows them and their owner so well. It’s like working with a lawyer your family has worked with for generations, you know him inside out, you trust him beyond doubt.

    The lines that are not shubuw generally come from outside the tribe, they came to the tribes as a result of war, theft, etc. They are certainly asil and shubuw to the tribe from which they originally came, if they belong to that tribe’s homebred horses, and but as long as the new tribe doesn’t not have full info about them, there is something missing. So the tribe will breed the mares, but will not use the male descendants of the mares as stallions (until further information comes their way). These are non-shubuw to the the tribe, and people can throw doubt on their asalah, by saying “we don’t know where this mare came from”. But they mare might be super asil in the eyes of its original owners, and belong to a shubuw line with this tribe. It’s like taking on a new lawyer, who might be very good, and even better than your fathers’, but you don’t know him well, you haven’t seen him in action, so you don’t have full trust.

  30. so the two concepts of asil and shubuw are different, but related. It’s not that one is above or better than the other.

  31. Ow, I have completely misread! It was late indeed

  32. 🙂 Doh,I am claiming sleep deprivation as well,I had had 2hrs sleep the night before my posting,I am also using this excuse for my atrocious French grammar which made me cringe when I reread it this morning!
    I read the first paragraph of the article as Patrick did,to refer to horses considered shubbuh,in fact what you were saying is that such mares were NOT shubbuh, even if Asil….sorry Edouard, and thankyou for explaining.
    As to the ‘in foal’ you had already stated that this was incorrect and I did pm Lesley, but by last night I felt that I had read three definitions of the same word,in fact I had read two,one of which was incorrect.
    Sorry to be even more of a pain, but reading the rest of your article made me wonder how long the concept of Shubbuh had been in place, I would imagine for as long as the Bedouin had been breeding, but if so why was it not until recently (120 years ago approx)that a degeneration in the quality of horses was becoming evident? Was it due to increased disruption and migration of the tribes or increased war so that more horses fell into the non shubbuh category in any given tribe?

  33. “why was it not until recently( 120) years ago appprox) that a degeneration in the quality of horses was becoming evident?”- I’ve wondered about those claims myself, that the horses have been going downhill as the bedouin were becoming more settled. Realize that most all of our root stock here in the states and in europe came out of the cradle countries after the supposed decline in quality began.. And of course we’ve all pretty much been ooing and ahing over the quality of the photos that Edouard has been posting of the White kruush(sp) stallion, the several Tahawi mares, Patricks photos of his stallion, the outstanding Davenports that the Cravers bred, and on and on. And of course just for grins there were several photos Edouard posted of the french governments purchases of horses into the 19 teens, twenties, and thirties. To be very clear- I don’t think any such decline in quality happened. I do strongly suspect that both Billy Blunt and Judy Wentworth wanted the world to believe they were the only ones with top quality horses, and that you simply couldn’t get them anymore from the cradle countries. Such a belief would of course mostly benefit Blunt and Wentworth. Something that might have been analagous to the way the new Eygyptian breeders- Ansata- Bentwood- and Gleanloch tried to corner the market in the U.S. in the 70’s and 80’s before the bottom fell out..
    Best wishes
    Bruce Peek

  34. I’m pretty sure there has been a decline as well in quality – what doesn’t mean there was any quality left – perhaps abundant quality is the right word.

    If you consider that the 1st Saud conquered Nejd with if I remember well with an army of around 10.000 of which only 300 on horseback (meaning probably over the double in youngstock, stallions & older mars) and that the Egyptians took away 300 of their finest, it must have been felt

    If you consider Rzewuski – after the Napoleonist wars, early 19th century – describes abundant quality of Neji Koheilans but also mentions how the 2nd Saud chief was notorious for confiscating the finest mares and that the bedu under his influenced quickly sold mares that would never be for sale to save either the family fortune, either to avoid draft in Saud’s army, it must have had an influence on breeding.

    The rise of the Muhammed Ali & his sons brought wealth to Egypt again and with an enormous appetite & connections for fine bedu stock, they must have continiously secured the finer horses – if you read how the Egyptian nobility (which were in fact Turcs) kept their horses in horrible conditions and the incredible numbers that perished and had to be replaced, together with their money it must have drained also important numbers of top horses from the breeders in Nejd

    At the end of the 19th century Blunt mentioned the rapid decline because of modern firearms – that was before the machine guns which the next Saud described for having made an onslaught among warmares during his conquest of Saudi Arabia (probably same onslaught happened against the Ottomans in WW2)

    Not sure of it, but the rises to power of the various Sauds, might also have isolated tribes that were moving outside his influence and making the interchange of the use of the good stallions less evident.

    Means the number of good horses must have declined immensly by early 20th century, which doesn’t mean there weren’t any left, but probably a whole lot less than in the times of Guarmany or Rzewuski.

  35. So the breeding practice constraints dictated by the concept of Shubbuh described by Edouard as a ‘double edged sword’ would be an exacerbating factor rather than the primary cause of any decline, which does make sense.
    It does in fact explain a decline in quality rather than just quantity such as may be due to the use increased use of firearms.
    Bruce, I think that you are probably right,I am sure that Lady Wentworth would not hesitate to ‘spin’ any decline,real or perceived to her advantage.
    I also agree that whatever decline there was, was clearly not complete as there are jewels in the desert to this day, as you rightly pointed out.
    Regarding the Blunts, it must be remembered that we are talking about two different people of extremely different characters. (Bedouin Tribes of the Euphrates and Pilgrimage to Nejd are very, very well worth reading but were heavily edited/mangled by Wilfred and I feel that it better also/instead to read the authentic voice of Lady Anne in her diary extracts collected in the book ‘Lady anne Blunt, Journals and Correspondence 1878 to 1917’. The correspondence at the end being of particular interest to American readers btw.I’m sure you know all this anyway,but while on the subject Edouard,Jeanne…any news on your book?)
    Anyway that is by the by, my point being that they commented on the decline during their early desert journeys before Crabbet was even established as a stud,much less a commercial venture.
    Right I am going now to shoe and ride my beloved horses, who would not exist were it not for the Blunts, so don’t expect too much objectivity from this quarter ! 🙂

  36. It is amazing to me the challenges that the traditional “tribal” type Arabians have endured to this day. I believe that the tribes who escaped controlling factors in parts of the cradle region of the breed found a safe haven in Syria [and parts of Iraq initially] in the 20th century. Keeping with their traditions they still continued to breed horses. Though the numbers were small for years into the 1960s and 1970s, the friendly environment in Syria allowed them to gradually produce more horses so that when I was visiting the Tai and Shammar in the 1990s they had a great deal more horses than people who traveled that region in the 1950s – 1960s were able to see. I saw horses of great quality during my brief time but later accounts by others who attended the 2007 WAHO conference in Syria were treated to even more numbers of high quality “tribal” type Arabians. What this says to me that in the hands of tradition this breed can be restored so long as its creating factors are realized. This is why it is doubly important now to embrace all “possible” remaining elements for this kind of preservation and not lose any more. Either in traditional hands or with proper guidance, the traditional Arabian quality is still available to preserve and enjoy. What remains the most important challenge is to make ourselves thoroughly familiar with this kind of Arabian and its history and be pro-active in communicating to the newer people the importance of this kind of Arabian as the root horse. Just because many newcomers only enter the world of the Arabian horse from the magazine or show ring does not mean that they cannot be our friends and we cannot mentor them as to the value of the breed’s origins. The more we know about the breed the easier it will be to find out what the connections are between what we value and what newcomers see. Our job in making connections is as important as our efforts to preserve.

  37. Quite right Joe.

  38. Joe:,”be proactive in communicating to the newer people the importance of this kind of arabian as the root horse.” Reminds me of what you said to me for that WKAR radio story I did on Al Khamsa back in the mid 80s.
    best wishes
    Bruce Peek

  39. Hi Bruce. Yes it is true. I said this many years ago. I no longer breed so writing and talking is all I can do for my part, but everyone has many avenues to choose from to pay forward the understanding of the traditional Arabian horse.

  40. Nicole de Blomac “Cheval limousin, chevaux en Limousin” page 314 : “Kebira suitée d’une pouliche de l’année est acquise par le général Sigala pour le roi du Piémont.” I wonder how the mare exported to Italy ended up in Algeria… Anyway she was not purchase by Friar at the Pompadour sale.

  41. C’est la meme Kebira? Il y en a eu plusieurs.. Aussi, peut-on tracer cette Kebira dans le studbook italien?

  42. Entry of Aissa in French studbook:

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