No comment
This is the unbeaten racehorse Al Sakbé (Kesberoy x Morgane de Piboule by Djourman), born in 1995.
This is Akim de Ducor by Akbar (Djelfor x Fantasia by Gosse du Bearn) out of Ishra, who is by Tornado de Syrah (by Djourman), born in 2005.
This is Elios de Carrere, 1992, by Manganate out of Nerva du Cassou by Baroud III.
All three are “Arabians”, and duly recognized by WAHO. Actually, one comment: some people just have no shame. Time for a paradigm shift.
A travesty. ):
The less charitably-minded might even use words like fraud or corruption…
Lovely horses, though.
Of course they’re lovely, these are some of the best horses in the world. They’re just not Arabian horses.
That’s some odd photoshopping of the ground on the first photo. (Notice the sharp shadow on the off foreleg, and yet there’s no shadow on the ground at all?)
That’s because the horse was bred and lives in a Gulf country, and the background image was “imported” from Europe to make it look more authentic. Interesting, authenticity in the context of French “Arabian horse” racing lines means an association with France and the green French countryside, as opposed to a romantic desert background with sand dunes, which seems to be the visual “authenticity” associated with Egyptian lines.
Also, I am not sure they have yet succeeded at growing grass that green in the UAE…
Whatever the claimed breeding of Akim de ducor he has a Nearco hindend. You can see the same kind of quarter horse rear end on Nearco, accentuated into bold ruler, carried on to Secratariat, and then down into Storm Cat. These horses do not look like arabs. Their quarter horse characteristics stand out like a Prostitute at Midnight Mass. The quarter horse hindquarters with the huge rear end came about because Nearco had a huge Butt, and the sprinter type american thoroughbreds he was bred to also looked like quarter horses. The tiny leg bones were good enough for a short race over a well manicured track. Anyway by the time you get to secratariat and storm cat,you see the additive effect of subsequent generations of american Thoroughbreds, so that even the so called ,’distance,’ horses like Dynaformers’ son Barbaro end up breaking down. Is this what we want Arabians to end up looking and behaving like?
Best wishes
Bruce Peek
Bruce is right. I was thinking these looked like modern day TBs. I, personally, prefer the older, classic type TB. While most certainly nice horses that have won more than my little herd… I would not even use these in my Anglo Arab program. My TB is much typier.
What I really don’t understand, is why Asil Club and Al Khamsa don’t join forces and transform their activities into a new studbook for asil Arabians in stead of continuing to work within WAHO???
You just asked the million dollar question, patrick. Things are slowly moving toward this direction but not fast enough in my opinion..
Could the following be done- List the present roster of Al Khamsa, and the Asil club, and the pretty much known to be asils in Arabia deserta( syria, saudi,turkey,jordan,lebanon,isreal,eygypt,kuwait the gulf nations and iran etc)Include an appendix of cmk horses, for example those with Skowronek but otherwise no more outblood.
And a sublist of WAHO horses without french Anglos. Close with a statement that the French racing crosses are actually Anglos and no amount of pretense will change things.
best wishes
Bruce Peek
trouble is, horses with Skowronek represent 90% of WAHO recognized bloodlines. There are not many, many French “anglos” out there. They are high end racing horses, with markets mainly in the Gulf and the USA (Cf. Calin du Loup in Florida, breeding fee: 4000 USD). So I would go for the first part of your suggestion only.
Oh OK I got the impression from your reply to one of the other posters on the psuedo arabian thread that the Skowronek horses had much less non Asil blood and so should not be thought of in the same category as the french anglos. So i thought well how about an appendix section for them. This doesn’t mean that the sublisted horses should be tought of as Asil however. It seems to me that should be plainly stated in the would be ,’studbook,’. And too,that while there is a tiny difference in the sublisted horses and the Asils, the difference is nevertheless there. Even though i can appreciatte the good riding qualities of a shagya i know there is a difference between a shagya and say for example a Craver bred Haifi stallion.
Best wishes
Bruce Peek
Fair point, Bruce.
Dream on … neither WAHO neither any WAHO studbook will ever collaborate creating a sublist labeling the asil Arabian. It would be the same as saying that 90% of the registered pure bred Arabians are in fact partbreds.
Only an independent studbook for asil Arabians based upon horses tracing to the known desert sources will be able to change something. Only if that studbook gains importance, the WAHO studbooks might someday be convinced to add a sublisting to their paperwork. Such new studbook should also foresee in his statutes the possibility to kick out horses in case origin proofs wrong, nomatter the quantity of horses involved, no matter who the owners are.
As far as I know there has only been one studbook in the world that has registered Arabians the right way with 3 categories: one for proven desertbreds & their descendants (probably those with hujjah), one for pure bred Arabians (including the oriental horses without hujjah) and the Arab breeds (meaning the real partbreds).
This was the Russian studbook (of the tsaristic Russia, not communist Russia). They had of course a healthy stock of desert horses to fall back on, compared to the Poles who mainly brought back stallions and only a handful of mares.
Hmmm- So why not just set up some web documents with bunches of pages of listings with Al Khamsa, and the Asil club rosters. Than list as Patrick mentioned those with proven descent from Desert horses with a Hujjah. And also include a stated procedure for delisting stock that is proven to be non Desert Bred regardless of the importance of the owner. What the heck why not give it a whirl. What could happen?
best wishes
Bruce Peek
Bruce, I am pushing this very same idea with the Al Khamsa Board. Lets see what happens. I will keep you in the loop.
What about Athbah Stud in Saudi-Arabia, besides their mainly Polish showstars and French racers, they have a smaller program of desert breds. For instance Masoud al Thlith, 2001 bay Desert Bred stallion (Haleem x Mabrooka al Thalitha) http://www.athbahstud.com/media/slideshows/258/full/IMG_0750.jpg or the gorgeous Mandouba
2000 grey Desert Bred mare(Haleem x Okht al Nadba) http://www.athbahstud.com/media/slideshows/296/full/IMG_1271.jpg
That Saudi desert-bred stallion Haleem is so prepotent. I wish the EAO would agree to infuse some of his blood into their Egyptian lines, as an outcross.
The bay Masoud al Thlith, looks like a very substantial, and strong horse. Wish you could see his front legs more clearly though.(insert general rant here about taking candid relaxed full body shots of Asils cuz usually the noble character of the asil somehow communicates itself more clearly to the onlooker in such pics,moreso than in a picture in the style of the Bogs boys halter pose)
Also Edouard wasn’t Sameh the result of a Saudi infusion into King Farouks(sp)breeding program?
best wishes
Bruce Peek
Coming back to the idea of a own studbook or a special group within the now existing WAHO accepted studbooks there has been an attempt in Germany this year. Some members of the Asil Cup made a petitition in the general assembly of the GASB. Without success!
My opinion is that this aim can not be accieved within the existing registries. And if we as asil breeders should leave the registries who will be there to tell them that the asil horse is the real Arabian horse?
Of course without success, why would breeders of pure bred Arabians declassify their horses as not pure? The asil Arabian could always be double registered but at least if an independent studbook for asil arabians upon a solid foundation were to be created that alone would add a value (both in the purist meaning as marketing) to the status of the remaining asils. In Syria there is no difference between asil papers and waho papers so why not breed with French racers if there is a good market for partbreds with purebred papers?
This Horses are not Asil Arabians.
They dont looke like them.
And of course…this Horses are bad looked.
I dont like it.
Late and tired so two quick points, one as an owner of WAHO horses, I love the idea of an elite registry within WAHO of absolutely Asil horses, though this obviously implies, correctly, that mine for example have some uncertain blood.
How WAHO can object to this I do not know, though I can see WHY they might.
I do think that it is a huge and shameful step between the majority of WAHO horses and the ‘French Anglos’ and that such horses should always have been be absolutely excluded from WAHO… …. as Edouard says they are not huge numbers so could , if the will was there be excluded even now.
(btw Shagyas are an entirely different matter, fantastic horses of Arab blood but not and not claimed to be, Arabs.)
I think the important thing is as far as possible establish the TRUTH, be open about it and then breed to the highest ideals, in blood, conformation, character and performance, zealously maintaining and respecting the Asil group while purifying to the extent possible the rest of the purebred genepool.
To be fair, from my limited knowledge, there are horses recognised by Al Khamsa that I would have considered doubtful (I am NOT an expert), however the principle of seeking the truth about a horse’s breeding should surely apply to all and equally, there can be none regarded as ‘untouchable’. This is why I like the idea of a two tier registry, if a so called Asil horse ‘falls from grace’ due to a minimal flaw in his pedigree, his blood can still be treasured and used in a ‘clean’ (of Anglos) and improving ‘purebred’ genepool, though excluded from the Asil pool.
I think that having Asil horses properly recognised WITHIN WAHO is likely to mean that they are much more widely used and recognised … surely a good thing?
BTW To state the obvious the French ‘Anglo’ Dahess that I refered to was the Amer son, not the grey from Syria!!!
You make a lot of sense Lisa..
Good thoughts, Lisa, but I don’t believe WAHO would accept an asil stud book among their other national stud books. IMO, it would have to be an entirely different sort of stud book in order to do what needs to be done. I am sure open to being converted, however!
Until the 1970s, in the national stud books for pure-bred Arabians world-wide, the definition of a pure-bred Arabian used to read as follows: “It must be possible to trace all ancestral generations of a pure-bred Arabian back to the Bedouin breeding of the Arabian Peninsula.” If a descent including non-asil blood was detected in the pedigree, the horse in question and its progeny was eliminated from the stud book completely.
When, in 1968, the scientific pedigree analysis by U. Guttmann – F. B. Klynstra, The Lineage of the Polish Arabian Horses (Marbach 1968) proved that the influential Polish Arabians exported all over the world in fact had a large number of non-Arabian ancestors, the definition in the individual stud books was changed, often after a long delay, to:” A pure-bred Arabian is a horse listed in a stud book for Arabian pure-breds which has been recognised by the WAHO.”
(Just one example here: according to the analyses of Guttmann and Klynstra, the Polish Arabian stallion Skowronek, probably the most influential Polish stallion, was tainted by 13 mares of Polish regional breed, 5 English Thoroughbreds and 1 Turkmenian).*
Even the WAHO finally had to change its definition with regard to the purity of the blood, confessing that only 2 per cent of the horses listed internationally as pure-bred Arabians can be traced back exclusively to Bedouin breeding (WAHO publication, 21 January 1998: “Is Purity the Issue?”).
http://www.asilclub.org.
This was in 1998,the 2 per cent are less than 1 per cent in 2010.
You’re probably right Jeanne, but they SHOULD. I will probably never own an asil horse, I own my horses to ride, they are my family and are with me for life, I breed for myself, so am unlikely to buy any more horses. However I love the Arab breed and think the Asil group are extremely precious, and should be respected and treasured. I think some people may feel threatened by the Asil breeders in that they feel that their own horses are devalued. This should be combated in two ways, firstly by all Arab owners and breeders informing themselves and being honest with themselves about their horses’ pedigree rather than a ‘head in the sand’ approach, secondly I think the Asil group would serve it’s own ends better by being perhaps less ‘cliquey’ and more open with owners of non Asil horses. It does not help to use provocative language to dismiss or insult other people’s horses. The impression is sometimes given that horses with Skowronek blood ( to use the classic example) are little better than mongrels, well I don’t think they are… they are not Asil but Skowronek was a beautiful little horse of overwhelmingly Arab blood who was a great source of Arab type, if you think about the genetics it is possible indeed likely that in terms of his DNA he only passed on true Arab DNA or at least the amount of non Arab DNA is truly vanishingly small. ( Though of course I wish Lady W hadn’t used him!!). The same goes for some other (though not all) Polish lines, there are certainly some significant blemishes in Polish breeding but sometimes the implication is that the foundation mares were little better than carthorses. It should be remembered that the Poles had been importing and breeding Arab horses for centuries and that some of the gaps were due to studs being scattered due to political upheaval, records being lost and destroyed etc. I am not saying they are Asil, they are not, never were and never will be, I would probably not use a Polish stallion myself. I am just saying that we should look at the whole picture and try to educate people in an inclusive way rather than alienating them.
I think Asil horses should be seen as a super-elite within the Arab world and promoted as such in a positive way with the result that more people may choose to own them as a matter of pride and principle and more people may use Asil stallions on ‘purebred’ mares thus helping to purify the purebred genepool.
I am obviously not implying that all or even most Asil breeders are insulting of other horses, and certainly not you Jeanne, but I have read and heard such comments and can imagine that it may alienate some people (not me, for a start it is the truth and for another thing my horses themselves have proved themselves to me as worthy of the name Arab, if not Asil, no words on earth could make me think less of them). For the good of the breed we should all work together.
Just saw Joe’s post…I have read the article concerned before and agree that WAHO have made some appallingly bad judgements exemplified by the horses pictured above, they are not Arabs by any measure and should be de-registered.
I am not an advocate for WAHO.
I am just trying to see the situation clearly, WAHO has the position and the power, if Asil breeders are sure that they can stand outside this and maintain a viable and growing pool of horses without the loss of too many lines then … and I mean this sincerely…good luck to them.
I just wanted to put forward the case for the 99% of Arabs ( to use Joe’s estimate) who represent an enormous wellspring of Arab blood, many of whom show in full measure the precious qualities of a true Arab…. is it worth ‘ throwing the baby out with the bathwater’ ??
My other point , as I have tried to express above, is that an Asil registry within WAHO may greatly enhance the awareness and (I hate to term this in such a way) marketability of Asil horses, thus encouraging Asil breeding.
Furthermore, it seems to me that even in the Asil group there are some questionable ancestors in some lines, this is why I feel a SLIGHTLY more flexible approach may be the best solution, again while supporting the view that perfectly Asil horses are extremely precious and worthy of vigorous protection.
As for Skowronek, I would never duck the fact that he was in all probability not Asil and as a consequence, nor are my horses, but I find Klynstra’s condemnation of him as overblown and unconvincing as Lady Wentworths desperate defence. There is some appalling nonsense in Klynstra’s writing as in Lady W’s.
I wish that WAHO and Lady W had been more rigorous and shown more integrity but we cannot change the past, only the future.
To Lisa
even in the 19th century’s Badia not all the horses were “Chubuw” or “Attik” (old) or “Asil” as we called them today.
The danger is this 1% left became 0,5% .
the “Asil” horse should be a reservoir of pure blood where non-asil mares could take from time to time a “shot” of purity if their owner think that they need it.
I saw non-Asil Bedu horses winning 120km races in Syria winning over “Asil” stock.
these were “Shimali” horses existing in Mesopotamia before the Bedouin came with their horses.
the Asil and Shimali cross gave formidable horses.
As I wrote before the owner of a non -Asil mare should cross her with an Asil stallion only if he thinks that she need a admission of pure blood.
I respect the Polish Horses as fantastic Arab horses,not Asil,but very good Arab horses,the Polish breeders are masters as the Tersk masters are.
Asil breeders should not have “this discriminating look” to the non -Asil Arabs,because an Arab horse is a good Arab not by its pedigree only but also by his “Arab” qualities.
Lisa: Well I have encountered the Cliqueyness thing too but never among Al Khamsa folks. Have had my nose rubbed in it by some- thats some, a very tiny number of Waho show system types, a very few Shagya breeders, and a few USDF dressage Empress wannabees. Suspect that the reason why in the past that some Asil supporters have stuck to themselves is the WAHO folks have their intellectual heads in the sand. I’ve never owned an asil horse, but thats chiefly cuz its been my experience that when the horse does the choosing by exchanging looks with you at that crucial buying time, it has been waho horses that have done so. That certainly doesn’t mean that upgrading the waho stock with
Al Khamsa stallions for example isn’t the most tenable path for a lot of us. So all in all it would be a very good thing for Waho and the various registries to quit playing lets pretend and we’ve got a secret and start discussing the who purity issue openly and honestly.
best wishes
Bruce Peek
I agree Bruce and Joe.
I absolutely agree wrt some ‘show’ people, nothing upsets me more than people posing as experts regarding Arab type when all they can see is head, neck, topline and trot!!! I don’t think you can truly judge an Arab unless you have ridden him … to me type includes endurance, a smooth effortless canter, handiness, intelligence etc etc I have heard people dismiss good ASIL horses with a straight profile as ‘ugly, off type etc etc” It is pure ignorance.
This sort of attitude from any quarter is unhelpful.
I strongly believe that those of us who love the Arab, whatever our horse’s bloodlines should make a sincere effort to be honest, open and cooperative, to be worthy of the incredible heritage that the Bedouin of millenia have left to this world.
Bruce your comment regarding that special look at buying time made me laugh, I absolutely know what you mean, I fell in love with my first Arab, the instant I saw him, by the time I saw his slightly less than perfect front limbs it was too late!!! As it happens he justified himself by being the most fabulous riding horse and most generous friend that I could ever ask for.
Though I make part of my living by vetting horses for other people, and obviously TRY to have my objective ‘vet’ head on me when buying or selecting a stallion for myself, there has to be an element of falling in love too… they cost too much in time and money to keep a horse that doesn’t make your heart beat faster!
“…they cost too much in time and money to keep a horse that doesn’t make your heart beat faster!”
Amen, Lisa!
It seems that there is also a purity controversy in the USA on the racing stallion
“Burning Sand” 1986
San Lou Romirz x Du Smaragda
fee 5000 usd.
It seems that its dam was never blood typed for parentage verification and when the AJC checked early on when Burning Sand was running, it was said that she had died and sent to a rendering plant or something of that nature. .
So we have French, Saudi and Us “Ringers” and WAHO is still asking”Is purity the Issue?”
Yes there is a lot of noise around him too.. that said, Kees Mol was not talking about these ringers and cheats, but rather about 95% or so of the WAHO horses, the Skowroneks and such, which is a historical issues as you well know..