Another Dahman Baghdad – but from Iraq
I am preparing an entry about the stud of the Iraqi family of al-Nujaifi near Mosul. This family has been breeding Arabian horses for the past 100 years and even sold some mares to the Turkish horsebuying commission in the 1930s. This short report from the WAHO website showcases the young stallion Dahman Bagdad from the al-Nujaifi breeding (scroll down to the Iraq section).
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| Dahman Baghdad |
I need to ask a question that may seem rude, given your relation with the breeder: Is this horse clean, or does he have English Thoroughbred blood through Tabib (a.k.a. Dahman Amer in the Iraqi studbook), and his son Dahman Bagdad (b. 1944).
You know Nujaifi in his book says Tabib was an Arab horse, and you know how false this claim is.
I really dont know if there is any Tabib blood in his dam ,I only posted the photo because of the similitude and the timing of the two horses name.
the good news is that we learned that prince Turki breed only pure Saoudi horses which is refreshing.
About Tabib ,the Iraqis have a completely another story than the one we know.Anyway the photos of Tabib’s grand sons that I saw dont show the same thouroughbred look that we saw on the French horses photos that we have posted lately ,they look like ordinary Arab horses and some of them are really beautiful.
Joe, come on, give me a break, all these horses that came to the Beirut racetrack in the 1950s onwards, and spoiled our Asil horses in Lebanon, were grandsons and greatgrandsons of Tabib, and they looked like Anglo-Arabians..
If this horse has Tabib blood, which I think you should inquire about, then he has no place on this blog, whether his owner is al-Nujaifi or someone else.
This blog is about Asil horses, and it seeks to raise awareness about the preservation of what remains of the Asil horse in its original homeland.
Every single horse merchant 80 years and over I have interviewed, and even Henri Pharaon to whom I spoke at length about this, confirmed that Tabib was an English Thoroughbred. Husayn Nasir even has a picture of the horse, which I have seen and believe me he looks like a (grey) Thoroughbred.
Tabib’s reputation is well known .
But I think that it was interesting to hear the Iraqi version of the story and to show some of these horses who have such a bad reputation.
Maybe they was two horses?
Two days ago we were discussing with R.J on Szumka born in 1824..
Joe Feriss wrote yesterday that he have faith that things were kept straight at the Khedive’s stud (in respect to the Khedive Thouroughbred breeding)in 1914.
I wrote to Dr Mohamed el Nujaifi a letter when he is sent me his book(3 month ago) arguing with him about his version.
I wrote an aricle 10 years ago where I showed that the Lebanese Arab Horse authorities knew since 1953 about the Iraqi horse’s origin.
This article only brought me troubles with my closest friend at the race track comittee.
Your information is incomplete as well as the late Henri Pharaon’s and the horse merchants that you interviewed:There is not only Tabib but other doubtful horses in the Iraqi breeding.
I thought that this subject was worth to be discussed because it involves all the Middle East horses,it seems that I was wrong.
The Iraqi horse breeding tribes being in close contact with the Syrian horse breeding tribes, a lot of horses bought in the Syrian desert may have been bred in Irak or have more than an Iraqi bred horse as an ancestor.
“it has already been stated that a large proportion of the so-called Arabians which appears in foreign markets are produced in El IraK”Major Tweediep.278
in the late 1870’s Iraqi began exporing horses to the Indian market ,later began the crossing in order to gain height:some British regiments in India were mounted on Arab horses brought from Iraq.it seems that the tentation was too great not to cross Arab mares with Turkmen stallions(Wilfrid Blunt) and with some Anglo Arab horses bought from Egypt;
in the turn of the century there was also Thouroughbred horses in Bagdad,from Australia or brought from Russia trough Persia for the foreign consuls (Major Tweedie)p.195.
Judith Forbis wrote a hole chapter on “Gulf Arabs” the Muntifik breeders of Saadun are in the same region producing the “Gulf Arabs”.
I’m not pointing on any horse in particular but let us stop doing like the Ostrich,as far as horse breeding is concern the Syrian desert,the Syrian Mesopotamia and Iraq were the same country.
Gehelt el Cherif 1.58m was bred by Al Zubaid tribe (el Haddad)a mixed Arab and Kurdish tribe between the Euphrates and the Tigris (major Tweedie)p.84
“there is evidence to show that blood relationship exists between the Turkumani horse which is bred to the east of the Caspians and the Kuhailans of the Arabs.One of the good deeds of Abbas I of Persia ,died 1628,was to collect and distribute a large number of Arabian mares and stallions.The new breed thus founded was well cared for by the northern nomadic Kurds and it flourished greatly in certain localities which now belong to Russia.We have heard it stated by those who know “Turkmenia” that he best variety is the Argamak essentially a modified Arabian” “Pilgrims and other travellers from kingdoms as distant as Bukhara frequently pace over the routes of Shamiya and Al Jazira on Turkmani horses..Bay,grey or dark brown are the established colours.As a rule these horses are of a greater height and scope than Arabs”
“we have thus dwelt on the subject of Turkumani horses,partly because the breed is an interesting one,and partly in connection with the well-attested and evident fact,above alluded to,of this blood in a debased form being spread over Shamiya and Al Jazira”
“A son of the historical Amir Dost Muhamad Khan of Cabul ,resided tiil he died at Baghdad.He has often told us that,according to his experience the Argamak is even better traveller and campaigner than the Arabian”
Major -General Tweedie.The Arabian horse his country and his people 1894. p.273/ 274.
Major-General W.Tweedie,C.S.I. for many years h.b.m’s consul -general ,Baghdad ,and political resident for the government of India in Turkish Arabia.
I obviously cant quote all the part of the book ,if someone wants I can do it ,just ask.
Pure Man was right the “Shimali”(Northern horses)have always had a bad reputation in Najd.
Horse of Iraq, part 2
As per Major –General W.Tweedie who lived for ten years in Baghdad as British Consul-General..
One must keep in mind that before WWI that Syria and Iraq(called Turkish Arabia) were part of the Ottoman Empire ,so the same country ,opened to the transit of all goods included horses.
Quoting Major-General Tweedie
The term”baridatu el jauf” lit.” cold hearted is given by the Bedouins to the produce of Shimali mares by “Hudud” stallions I.e. Pure-bred stallions . p 272
The granges and hamlets on the Euphrates produce innumerable horses which it would be an abuse of language to call Arabians.Where the Bilikh fertilizes north-western al Jazira, the Baraziya ,(Kurdish tribes),drive the plough and raise cattle. These are not al ghazu folks and their mares are mostly Shimali. They are, however, skillful horse breeders, and they have access to the stallions of the Bedouin. They specially aim at breeding large horses. A considerable number of charger-like upstanding colts of all shades of blood are annually collected from them by the Mosul and Urfa dealers. P.272
All the divisions of the Bedouin have not the same rules as horse-breeders. Different tribes have different standards; and produce different results. This fact is widely know in Arabia.No horse-dealer with a colt for sale will admit that he is of Iraqi breeding, if it be possible to father him on the Shammar. And just as “Shammari” is thus better show-name than “Iraqi” so is “Aneze” a better name than “Shammari”. When a mare from the Aneze passes among the Shammar, her new owner is proud of her because of where she comes from. But when one of the Aneze takes a Shammar mare in foray, it is not so. His inclination is to doubt her; and it is only after the fullest verification of her history and pedigree that he will breed from her. p 123
Thus the horse of the mixed pastoral and cultivating Arabs of Al Hawija serves as a useful substitute for the genuine Arabian, when only a small price can be given. The Ubaid ,his breeders, have barley; and many of their colts touch 15 hands and upwards. Good specimens, when not too suggestive of the gun wheel, after a month of polish, pass with the inexperience for Arabians of the picture-book type. p 280
St Petersburg imports a considerable number of English horses, the progeny of which, in the form of Russian carriage cattle may be seen as far eastwards as Kirmanshah in Persia, only ten days march from Baghdad. If a Consul, or a merchant residing on the Tigris, or on the Shatt el Arab, were to bring out for his own riding a foreign stallion, and the natives liked him, they would bribe the groom and obtain his services.p.283
End of quoting.
In Conclusion, reading about the many kinds of the so-called Arabian existing in Iraq, in the 1880’s 1890’s, the Tabib blood may be a drop in the Ocean.
The horse dealers that Edouard interviewed told him only the small part of the iceberg, maybe because they or their family had sold some renowned horses of the same origin than the one mentioned in the Tweedie book, and considered today Pure and Asil by many.
The same may have happened with 19th century buyers and we consider these horses’ progeny as pure and we write books and articles about them. That’s why I asked my friend Joe Feriss to study and dig more on the “pure bred origin”; because they might be of the so-called Arab.
Dear Joe,
It is good that you post the Tweedie quotes as it further clarifies that we can not determine “Asil” in the strictest sense and I understand this.
Make no confusion, I am not the one who said that the horses originating from this region are all “asil”. Like many we will never know for certain.
However, in the bigger picture, the modern Arabian horse of today is an admixture of many origins and widely divergent tastes. Some of this admixture as cited by previous researchers is from native European horses, the mix being created outside Arabia, not under Middle Eastern conditions of selection. They are still “purebred” in the general livestock sense already discussed in previous blogs.
All intervention of mankind into the breeding of animals is fluid and evolving over time. It seeks to balance what nature will allow with what mankind desires in the animal, in a given geographic and cultural setting.
For Al Khamsa, the focus and encouragement is to help people realize the value of maintaining the oriental connection of ancestry and to see the Arabian horse as still being essentially an “Arabian” creation that we are charged with maintaining.
If we think like a Bedouin, breed by the standards of their general needs and try to preserve that traditional desert-tribal kind of horse, then we have something to offer anyone else who may be going astray from the traditional horse of the desert.
If we cannot know specifically the origin of each ancestor in a pedigree but the horse can be reasonably assumed to be a product of the “kind” of horse found among the Bedouin, it is different than when a horse is long bred outside of the producing culture, the result of top-crossing on native non-Arab stock.
Questions for thought: if in the past any tribesmen or settled family members crossed their stock with stock that not everyone accepted and the results better fit their survival needs, is it not still closer to the environment that created the traditional horse than the top-crossing in non-Arab lands with different needs and cultural views of the Arabian horse? In other words is it not the right of the “originating” culture to make formative decisions about its breeds, over those outside who try to do the same with different horses, far from the native land of the desert horse? Is it the same thing?
I think one thing that many of us can agree on is the hunger for the “traditional” Arabian horse illustrated among the tribes. Notice when anyone posts photos of this kind of horse on this blog, how much admiring commentary it usually receives.
The example I gave previously: the Shammar of today are unable to accept for breeding, U.S. descendants of the 1906 Davenport importation while admiring these horses and their preservation, even though we know they are the same type of horse, shows that we will all have different criteria for what we accept for breeding.
So we must look for what we have in common first and that is this hunger for maintaining the traditional tribal-desert Arabian horse. Perhaps purity is too difficult to define anymore but preservation is not and time is moving fast in the changing world of Arabian horses.
” Perhaps purity is too difficult to define anymore” it strangely sound like WAHO’s “Is purity the Issue?”
This is excatly the problem,what kind of horse are we preserving,and what purity?
So let us stop condemning,other people horses.Polish,Spanish, French…..Maybe our supposed Bedouin Arab horses are as part-breds as they horses are.
Some people write and give their opinion like if they are the only keepers of the
truth, only because some organisation based in the USA,or Germany voted on the purity of this or that horse,on the light of an information,who maybe wrong from the source.
Let each organisation look at the real facts behind the origin of each horse and then decide if he deserve the title of Pure Bred Arabian.
Hi Joe,
I agree that people should stop condemning other peoples horses. In ANY organization there is always the risk that some people will adopt the bloodlines recognized for exclusive purposes rather than inclusive purposes. I do not go along with that view. I am often one of those proposing to include new bloodlines to Al Khamsa which I am comfortable in doing so because I know the organization does not proclaim to have the final truth on any line and has an open process for considering new lines. Lines not currently recognized by Al Khamsa does not equate with any sort of condemnation of them.
At the same time many in Al Khamsa admire other bloodlines outside of their own just as I do. In fact, in America some other non-Al Khamsa breeders groups share public presentations with Al Khamsa such as the CMK group, largely because both groups like the same kind of “traditional” Arabian.
Where each organization draws it’s circle is an arbitrary and human distinction. The fact that humans form tribes, confederations and organizations which identify and preserve bloodlines that appeal to its followers is as old as the breed itself. I don’t think it is done based on some quantitative “level of purity” anymore but rather from horses considered the kind of ancestors likely to produce what the organization’s followers prefer.
In any of my posts here you will not find condemnation of anyone else’s horses or bloodlines. What is always suggested is that we owe gratitude to the Bedouin and need to learn as much about them as we can so as to be faithful to the breed which has been entrusted to us, whether by individual efforts or by forming groups to facilitate this.
Zubayd is not a mixed Kurdish/Arabic tribe! Zubayd is one of the oldest and most noble Arab tribes in Iraq! Juhaysh, Ubayd, and Dulaym and other major Iraqi Arab tribes are from Zubayd. Tweedie was one of the least reliable informants on these issues.
I hope we can keep discussing things openly without getting to the point where we toss up our hands and say that, since there is a chance of problem with every bloodline, there is no reason for differentiation.
I agree with Joe F. that what we are attempting to preserve is the horse of the Bedouin. What the Bedouin of the classic horse breeding tribes and times did is what made the breed, not what we may have done in 19th century Europe or 20th century North America.
Now that’s a statement I would heartily agree with, Jeanne.
Dahman Baghdad
her sire sttae is Pure
1659 No. volume4 stud book of
Saudi Arabia
Pure
I know this man, who lives in Jeddah
and horses 2 Kuhaila Krush from Saudi Arabia
Has entered the English Thoroughbred blood of horses on Iraq
All the people know this
hello,
For your guidance, please find hereunder the opinion of the french general inspector of haras “RIEU DE MADRON” in 1925
quote: “Arabs from Bagdad, Mossoul and even dry plain of Alep presents another type of the pur blood. the head is small and thin, the neck is not often just, his scopes have not a good orientation, his angles are more closed than Enézah ones; but he is more wide,with plenty of stamina and hardly membered. He often presents a lot of power in his hindquarters very surprising as i have been able to verify to some egyptian subjects. I have seen arabian of this kind in Alexandria training stables as Hud-Hud, Roi de l’Air, Whahag and Amir of which they give good value. Personally i appreciate them very much although I applied to buy only Enezah, but I intentionally wanted to put a “Bagdady” in my lot”unquote