Barely Surviving Lines: Courthouse Hamdani Simri line through Safarjal
Don’t ask me how this ancient line made it into the 21st century. It’s a near miracle. Lady Anne Blunt imported the Hamdani Simri mare Sobha (Wazir x Selma) from Egypt in 1891, from a certain Mahmoud Bey who got her dam from the Abbas Pascha collection. Sobha’s line was one of the most represented lines at Crabbet Stud, after Rodania’s and Dajania’s. It produced a stallion at the first generation: Seyal (Mesaoud x Sobha), despite the latter’s grey color (the Blunts were not big on greys). Lady Anne also used Sobha’s other son Antar at her Sheykh Obeyd Stud in Egypt. Seyal’s sire line is still in existence today: Seyal -> Berk -> Ribal -> Ghadaf -> Jadib -> Ibn Gulida -> Omagh -> Dib -> Huntington Doyle, a chestnut 1990 stallion I saw at the Doyle Ranch in Oregon last August. But that’s not what I wanted to talk about here.
Sobha had a daughter at Crabbet, Siwa (by Ahmar), who had Somra by Daoud, who had Safarjal by Berk. Safarjal was Lady Wentworth’s gift [purchased Thanks for the correction RJ] to Musgrave Clark of the Courthouse stud, which I wrote about in an earlier entry. Clark bred Safarjal to his desert-bred stallion Fedaan, and she produced Somra II. Somra II produced Siwa II by Rheoboam (by Sainfoin who was out of Safarjal x Rangha) hence doubling the Safarjal blood. Siwa II produced Selima by the Saqlawi Bahram (Sainfoin x Betina by Fedaan), for a third cross to Safarjal. Selima produced the two full sisters Sappho (1971) and Sceptre (1977), by Bleinheim, also a Saqlawi, with a fourth cross to Safarjal and a cross to another Courthouse desert-bred stallion, Nimr.
Sceptre, the younger of the two mares, was never replaced in asil breeding as her owners refused to part with her and bred her to non-asil stallions. Somebody (not me) rightly wrote under Sappho’s page on the allbreedpedigree website: “Sappho was one of the last british bred arabians without the blood of polish part bred arabians. all her ancestors trace back to desert bred horses.” I like the straight-forward reference to “part-bred Arabians”, which is what today’s Polish horses really are.
Sappho’s fate was better one. She was bred once to the asil Egyptian stallion Shakhs (Morafic x Shiaa by Alaa El Din), and luckily, she got a daughter to replace her: Selmah, a 1977 grey mare. Selmah seems to have been exported to either Germany or Austria, since she produced a number of asil foals by Egpytian stallions, such as the 1987 mare Sabla, by Jamil (Madkour x Hanan), and the 1989 mare Saree by Jamil’s brother Salaa El Dine (Ansata Halim Shah x Hanan). They must have left some offspring, because such breedings are not coincidental. Both mare are recorded as bred by Mrs. Penelope Pendleton, who is certainly one lucky woman. One needs to get in touch with her to see if she is still breeding, and if possible get one filly from these precious Hamdanis.
I should add two things: first, an acknowledgment of the few preservationnist breeders who tried to obtain either Sappho or Sceptre, and do something worthy with these lines. These include Carol Monkhouse Lee and Tzviah Idan. Second, that another asil line to the Blunt’s Sobha, through *Simawa (Rustem x Sarama), still exists in the USA. More on these better known Sobha descendents another time.
Elena, I wrote this post with you in mind. You’re not far from these horses.
I love these kind of Hamdaniyah Simriyah
I’ve on Like Somra
The Hamdani Simri are originally from ‘Utaybah..
from Us
Please, I want information
Safarjal was a gift from Lady Wentworth to Mrs. Clark, to make up for Lady Wentworth having used an agent to trick the Clarks into selling Skowronek to her.
Mr Edouard,
I have a filly 3 years old from a farm in Hartsville, SC. (USA) She is old style. I am trying to find out if she would be helpful to any line of Arabians. If not that is fine. But her circumstances are interesting. The breeder died near when she was born and the 30 arabians he had suffered until probate. A local family talked to the lawyer about this weak, young weanling and he sold her for 100.00. (so she lived) The breeder was Al Fink. He had a boat company called Sting Ray-843-383-4507 in Hartsville. I am calling her Serafina. She is Wild/Light Bay with off hind white not quite sock (just coronet really) If she might be helpful? Many thanks and blessings on your head for this work. Adele Webb
Pretty mare, I love the color Chestnut and Grey.
We need to protect,the Asil Arabians.Is fact, these are the Russian, Polish and Spanish lines, no full-blooded Arabs, they have foreign blood by Polish country mares in their pedigree.
Edouard, I corresponded with Penny Pembleton years ago on these very horses. They went to Austria — I believe she lived there for awhile, and she was struggling to get them back in a legal ‘custody’ battle. If I recall correctly her husband or ‘ex-husband’ sold them without her permission. Somewhere I have the letters and perhaps even photos of Selmah. Will take a look.
I’d like to bet that Selmah’s progeny are still being bred with straight Egyptians and with a little more detective work we can locate the present ‘trustees’ or owners.
Penny and I sent Christmas cards to each other for several years; somewhere I have the last one with a return snailmail address. I had tracked her down through someone from the UK that I met at a WAHO gathering.
Okay, didn’t find an envelope but did find a partial address for Penny Pembleton and a phone number:
Cardiff, S. Wales
Phone (without country code) 0222-308241 if anyone wants to try their luck. In fact, maybe I’ll try later on today and will let you know if I get lucky.
Edouard,
Somehow I just knew you wrote this post with me in mind. 🙂 I will try the number in Wales.
Elena
Tzviah, and Elena, yes it would be great to get in touch with Mrs. Pembleton if possible. There is rescue needed here, if it is not too late.
I forgot to add another unique feature of the two mares Sceptre and Sappho: they are some of the very last asil tail male to the Abbas Pasha stallion Sueyd.
Sueyd : Sottam : Ibn Nura : Feysul : Rasim : Sainfoin : Rheoboam : Bleinheim : Sceptre and Sappho.
Good luck, Elana.
If the number doesn’t work, I would guess that if you contacted other Arabian owners in her area you might get lucky; that’s how I found her in the first place.
I also don’t believe that she has a clear understanding of the history that these horses represent, but I imagine she would be cooperative to preserve them if they are under her control.
She was a very kind woman.
Selmah died in 1998.I hope,Sabla or Saree are just living somewhere. Fact is that,. Mr.and Mrs.Pembleton are not members in VVOE since many years-said the Austrian Registry.
László
But how can we find the two mares then: Sabla and Saree, and there is a stallion too.
Both mare,Sabla and Saree had some progeny in the ’90-s..
László
asil or non asil? tell us more Laszlo you seem to have the Austrian studbook..
Edouard,what can we do,when we found some very very interesting asil horses,but without any registration…somewhere in Europe.What do You think, is there any chance to registering they? So,I have bad news,I think:( Once upon a time..was a herd of some 100 arabian horses (all,or a lot of them are for the asil breeding interesting).All or most of all had (or has)no papers!
The owner divided this herd only some years ago..This time I have no more informations.
László
Dear Tzviah,
what do You think,is this possible,the herd what ” I found” is the herd of Mr. and Mrs. Pembleton?
Could be…from what I understood Penny was trying to use legal means against her ex-husband to take control of what were actually her horses. I believe that he was Austrian and also, very well connected; perhaps he simply was too smart for her.
It is possible that things were simply left up in the air if she couldn’t manage to get this done.
Since my last contact was so many years ago, I have no idea if things were ever resolved between them.
What a sad, sad story if this is the case.
I can tell you what’s in DataSource. Selmah had the following foals by non-Registan Egyptian stallions, all registered in the Austrian stud book:
Sahaab 1986 gr s by Nijamin, bred by Penelope Pembleton. No registered progeny.
Sabla 1987 ch m by Jamil (*Jamilll in USA), bred by Penelope Pembleton. Has registered progeny.
Saree 1989 ch m by Salaa el Dine, bred by P.P. Has registered progeny.
Sadeeq 1990 ch s by Salaa el Dine, bred by P.P. No registered progeny.
Samurai 1991 gr s by Salaa el Dine, bred by P.P. No registered progeny.
Selmaly el Shahin 1994 gr m by Ansata Aly Jamil, bred by El Shahin Arabians. No registered progeny.
Sabla has three registered foals, all registered in the Austrian stud book, all bred by El Shahin Arabians, and all sired by Ansata Aly Jamil. None of them has any registered progeny:
Sablal el Shahin 1994 gr s
Sablaly el Shahin 1995 ch m
Aly Jamil el Shahin 1999 gr s
Saree also has three registered foals, again all bred by El Shahin Arabians, all registered in the Austrian stud book, and all sired by Ansata Aly Jamil:
Saraly el Shahin 1994 ch m
Sahaly el Shahin 1995 ch m
Aly Sary el Shahin 1997 ch m
Saraly el Shahin has one registered foal, a 1999 bay stallion bred by El Shahin Arabians, but the sire has a line back to Halef (Towarzysz Pancerny in Poland).
Sahaly el Shahin also has one registered foal, a 1999 black mare bred by El Shahin Arabians, sired by the same Halef descendant (who also has lines to Dardziling).
Tzviah,
I tried the number in Wales yesterday, but there was no answer. I was going to try again this afternoon when I received a very upsetting phone call from the States and am now too tired to call, but will do so asap. And speaking of upsetting, I can imagine all too well the pain Mrs. Pemberton must have gone through regarding her horses. Even to think of it makes me go cold. No pain is worse than that inflicted by someone who supposedly once loved you…
R.J.
So there should be three chestnut mares somewhere in Austria, right? Ages 12, 14 and 15. Plus another grey mare age 15. Does the stud book have the name and address of present owners? If they are all registered it should be possible to track them down I would think.
Thank you R.J.It’s good.We have chance..
László
DataSource does not give names of owners for any of these Austrian horses, just name of breeder. Maybe the registration authorities in Austria have more information.
Even if they are not registered they would be Al Khamsa. I am willing to do everything to help. I know I am repeating myself here, but someone should really get one of these mares into a preservation breeding. Anyone knows anyone who lives in Wales who can track this Mrs. Pembleton down? Lyman, doesn’t Carol Monkhouse live there?
Carol lives in England, I think, but it is close enough. I checked but I don’t have her contact information. I am sure Rosemary has it though.
So how i said,i asked the Registry,the owner of these horses is not member in the VVÖ.But i have some other ideas..
László
I have just tried for the second time to reach Penny Pembleton by phone. Yesterday I got no answer, but now I believe that must have been either because circuits were busy or some other malfunction (we had a serious of violent thunder storms yesterday) because just now I got a recording saying the number was either non-existent or unavailable. I used the posted number plus the country code, plus the double zero for calling outside of Italy. I also did a Google search for her in Cardiff, Wales, but came up with nothing.
Laszlo–I too went to the VVO site last night and came up empty-handed, but I could not send a message as I don’t speak or write German. I also searched Arabian horse farms and breeders in Austria–nothing. I went also to the Asil Club–there is only one Austrian member–and checked out the German breeders too just in case. Perhaps we should leave a message on the SE forum as so many of those breeders are in Europe…
Elana, Great idea to try SE forum for owners of Selmah’s Austrian progeny…. also to look for Penny. I will try if you have not.
Elana, Please try searching for her in other places in the UK, not necessarily Wales. Maybe there is some kind of board with the BAHS where you can inquire if anyone knows how to find her?
I found her by a fluke years ago, after attending a WAHO meeting and happened to meet someone who knew her when I mentioned the horses Sappho and Selmah.
Perhaps the Maxwells have a clue?
Sorry to pass this search on to you, but I am swamped this week with organizing an endurance race for the weekend, finishing an article for Desert Heritage, and with 2 mares getting close to foaling.
Thanks, RJ for all the information on their progeny. If we can find current owners on any of these I am sure that between Laszlo and myself, and other asil breeders I know in Germany who we can involve, we can at least educate the owners on what they’ve got and take it from there. From my experience they will thank us for this and perhaps even join the preservation effort in a more proactive manner.
Together, we can hopefully make some progress.
Elena,
we can’t find these horses on the website of the VVÖ,because the owner of these horses is not member.
I speak german,and last night I wrote some letters to
my friends.I believe,they help us to find a name or an adress. I wait for them…
László
Tzviah,
Will do. Don’t apologize for passing the research on to me. To tell the truth, I love it.
Laszlo,
Great that you could write letters to friends. You may be the only one in the world who writes real letters anymore. :)) By the way, if you have pictures of your horses I would love to see them. elatici@yahoo.com
Did not give us Information About SELMA
Abbas Pasha He bought from Who
you Did not give us Information About SELMA
Abbas Pasha He bought from Who
I took RJ’s information and posted it to the discussion topic on SE.com, which Tzviah started. Maybe someone replies with information on these valuable horses.
I bumped up a discussion thread for Ansata Aly Jamil, the stallion who sired progeny from the mares Sabla (Jamil) and Saree (Salaa el Dine). In this discussion, is a link for El Shahin Arabians, however, when I clicked on the link, there were no horses listed, only birds of prey. Don’t know if it is the same people, as several of the posters at the time stated that they could not access the site. Ansata Aly Jamil was bred by Dr. Nagel of Katharinenhof in Germany. The criticism of the stallion in the discussion is that he was smaller-sized than most people wanted. It will be interesting to determine if any progeny remain, which I am confident there is, the saving grace for this line is that they were crossed with some of the hottest (meaning most popular) Egyptian lines in the world.
Pure Man, I need to find the information about Utaybah and the Hamdani strain, then I will write back
Gerd from Austria posted in se.com that he owned Selmah, who produced the non-asil mare, Selimah by Fahkr El Kheil(who has Registan blood through Mahasin).
hello ! Dont misunderstand me but everybody talk about horses line ,pedigree,generation ,etc
Nobody about riding this daughter of wind, the character of this good horses why ??Its to believe
thats nobody riding .Why have or need the bedouin this horses ?
And why they are what they are (very good horses) ???? (gazu)ride of long distances or what do you think? Maybe this horse is not for riding??
Thank you
Sorry, I made a mistake. Gerd did not own the Sappho daughter named Selmah. He owned her non-asil daughter, Selimah by Fakhr el Kheil.
I found several Penelope Pembletons in Cardiff, but all private numbers. I e mailed a breeder in Mid Wales–penartharababians@aol.com asking for info. I referred them to this blog for further info. I found an AHS registered Arabian stallion for sale in Linconlshire, England who is suspiciously small (14.1)and e mailed asking for pedigree (you never know). Still searching… Thanks to Ralph and Tzviah for SE post as I had trouble registering on the site last night…
Thanks for keeping me updated, guys. I am not on se.com, and don’t plan to register any time soon.
no need write about Utaybah
the Hamdani strain With us from Four Hundred years ago
My question was about this mare SELMA
Who is the person Sold mare SELMA to Abbas Pasha
I don’t know who sold SELMA to Abbas Pasha. All I know from Hamad al-Jasir is that the Hamdani strain went from Simri of al-Dhafeer to Utaybah. That’s all. You know that already.
,I swear It is Somra Hamdani strain and Sappho, 1971, a Hamdaniyah Simriyah
Have received two private messages from people in Austria with non-asil Selmah descendants, but nothing so far from owners of asil.
Sorry,but nothing good.We found also non-asil descendants of Sappho,from the Maxwell’s Stud.
László
Where are the asil ones??? How can they disappear just like this!!!
Edouard:
I really believe that somewhere, there are SE descendants, who in turn are Asil. Particularly because the horses have been crossed with Nagel breeding, via Ansata Aly Jamil and I am confident (although no facts to prove this assumption) that there are horses of this line, in production. SE.com is not the internet site that it once was, under the ownership of Oliver Wibihal and Aleksi Busch and therefore, the inquiries posted may not be reaching the people that we need to contact. Carol Maginn is in Aachen right now and will be visiting Dr. Nagel’s Katharinenhof stud farm either today or tomorrow. I am going to email her, in the hope that she may ask Dr. Nagel if he knows of any descendants, in SE form.
Talk to you soon.
Ralph
Anything you can do on this Ralph will be greatly appreciated.
Ralph, I agree with you. There must be some still out there.
Meanwhile, I found a letter from 2000 from Penny Pembleton with a house address.
14 Dyfed Housee
Glendide Court (?) (Glenside?) Court
Tygwyn Roaed
Cyncoed
Cardiff CF 235JS
GB –S. Wales
So go for it you UKer detectives!!!
Tzviah! This is great! I’ve never had a single answer from any of the sources to whom I sent messages. And hopefully Ralph will soon have some info.
I received this message five minutes ago from the British Arabian Horse Society. Regarding the other organization mentioned in the message–arabianlines–I left a message with them some weeks ago and have had no response. It would seem that Penelope Pembleton has dropped off the face of the earth….See below:
Hi Elena
I have tried to contact the breeder of Asil horses using the last known address and unfortunately we have had our post returned to us. We had a different name to you (not Penelope Pembleton not on our system) but due to Data Protection because they do not advertise we cannot give this name out. We do not know of any other way to contact breeder I am sorry. Maybe you ask on Arabian Lines http://www.arabianlines.co.uk someone might be able to help. Hope you find out.
Regards Ros
I have only negative answers,sorry..
László
Hello,
perhaps I can help. The mares you are looking for (Sabla, Saree etc.), I believe this is the essence of the post yes?
They were until a few years ago (thats the last time I saw them at least), at the Stud ElShahin. The owners name was gerhard kropf. The stud was sold a year ago to the family kern. if you google vollblutaraber and fam. kern you will find the link. unfortunately, they dont have a list of horses they still have there, and I believe they sold a part of their breeding stock. But maybe you might be lucky there.
Best Regards
If you want I can call them for you… I would actually like to know what happened to the horses myself.
I sent an email to Tzdiah Idan!
Let me know!
Best regards.
Hi “Arab Friend” this is the best news I have heard for a while. It would be fantastic if you could call the kern family and find out about these horses. You see from this exchnge (56 responses to this blog entry) that a lot of people are interested in these horses..
I will wait for your news!
ArabFriend wrote me an email a few days, her name is Nadia.
I sent it on to Ralph Suarez and to Edouard by email as I was too busy to get online on this blog. Hope you can carry the ball for me and write her back, as I’m very busy at the moment– but hopeful that some hard info on asil descendants still alive and perhaps available for sale will come of this.
Have a beautiful day,
Tzviah
Thanks Tzviah, I will follow up with an entry this pm.
These jewels would also be the last asil line carrying the blood of Meshura!
That’s right I was not actually aware of this
Very interesting reading. We are very interested in hamdani simri lines but I don’t think the lines we are using are asil (Silver Fire). Sappho is represented in Australia by a grandddaughter Bint Sofia and Bint Sofia’s daughter Sinaya. (again, I don’t think these are Asil sadly) I really wish there was more information online about the Hamdani Simri’s!
Hi all!
I just wanted to let you know that the last few horses of El Shahin stud are now for closedown sale. Sadly, most of them are unpapered and not suitable for breeding 🙁
This is the phone number of the woman who manages the sale: +43/699/19468873
WkR
I was reading this with so much excitement… sad news in this last post
Thank you K. How is it possible to get them papers?
Have just read this blog with interest. Did anyone find asil descendants of Sappho? Was Mrs. Pembleton traced?
Yes. One of them is with Laszlo Kiraly now.. in Hungary
Is anyone still following this conversation about Hamdani Simri asil Arabians? Some of the responders have corresponded with me about this family long ago. I need immediate help in placing my stallion MSF HAMDANI SIMRI. He is still beautiful & healthy in middle PA USA. Sire: Faydin Dam: IMF Badia Nafila. Selma (AP) tail female. Look up on AK Roster. 717-977-8182 Nov 2021