Domow as an *Astraled daughter
I was thinking this morning, after re-reading this entry here; the shape of Domow’s head as seen in these early twentieth century pictures provides an additional argument for her being by *Astraled (Mesaoud x Queen of Sheba), who had a large, long and rather plain head, instead of Abu Zeyd (Mesaoud x Rose Diamond) who had a much shorter head and a finer muzzle.
I have seen their respective skulls, at the American Museum of Natural History in New York. The skulls are more different that these photographs show. I cannot send you the images, because they are all rights reserved by the Museum, but they are amazingly different.
Family resemblances are tricky things to rely on, though. I have said this many times, but for decades I KNEW Domow had to be an *Abu Zeyd daughter, because I could see his influence so clearly in her descendants. Apparently what I was seeing was a sort of parallel evolution that had come in through Hanad and Antez.
I realize what I am saying is simplistic, but I can see Queen of Sheba in Domow’s face more than I can see the Rodania’s and especially the Rose of Jericho line. There is something in the way Domow’s muzzle is shaped that is reminiscent of Queen of Sheba.
The Astraled picture shows a very nice moving horse! Also I think I like his neck a little better to. My opinion may be influenced by the pictures I’ve seen of Abu Zeyd when he was overweight. He did look positively fat when getting too many groceries.
best wishes
Bruce Peek
P.S. Was Astraled considered the better mover? He was out of Queen of Sheba who reportedly was no slouch in the movement department.
best wishes
Bruce Peek
Abu Zeyd must have been one fabulous stallion, there are some very impressive pictures around on the internet (considering the poor quality of most photographs in his days)
Thank you Edouard for posting these pictures, I must say the Berlin Coos County Historical Society here in Berlin(Maynesboro)NH, has done a fine job in preserving not only; the original Brown barns (their is only 1 other in the country) but, many rare photos have been placed on the walls reflecting many of this Astraled-Abu Zeyd line. It is too, nice to have Mr. Brown’s son still with us- who remembers a lot and has brought forth additional information as well.
I can’t recall anything in the record comparing the movement of the two stallions, *Astraled and *Abu Zeyd. WS Blunt is on record admiring *Astraled’s “action and quality and colour,” and yes he was out of Queen of Sheba, a mare noted for possessing and passing on good movement. But *Abu Zeyd was out of an Azrek daughter, and Lady Anne Blunt described Azrek as having “unrivalled trotting action.”
R. J., was that the Berk connection then? As I understand it Berk is thought of as a progenitor of fine movement.
best wishes
Bruce Peek
In Berk the movement comes from his maternal grandsire Ahmar (Azrek x Queen of Sheba). Both Ahmar’s parents had superlative movement.
Yes, that’s right about *Berk. Lady Anne wrote in her journal when she saw him longed as a yearling, “the sight of all was Berk longed, as his action is magnificent—he was a perfect picture in motion and recalled Queen of Sheba, Azrek, and Ahmar (this last his grandsire)”
Astraled didn’t have the tendency to throw a lot of chrome like Abu Zeyd. To me, the mare looks like a Zeyd get.
That said, you need to study the Crabbit films, not photographs. Gladys Edwards-Brown made some serious mistakes judging the qualities of horses from old photographs. I found some of the comments in her book truly laughable.
but then the colors would not match. Chestnut Abu Zeyd and chestnut Wadduda could only produce chestnut and Domow was bay.
Hello there,
I am a very long time reader of this blog (since I was 13!), first time leaving a comment.
I was rereading some older posts and would like to comment on this one, specifically to politely disagree with Marti’s comment of “Astraled didn’t have the tendency to throw a lot of chrome like Abu Zeyd. To me, the mare looks like a Zeyd get.”.
I’m not someone who can go in depth regarding the ins and outs of horse genetics like my friends who are much more knowledgeable about the subject can, but I can tell you some basic information.
Asil Arabians appear to have, as of right now, an unmapped KIT mutation (possibly multiple mutations as well? I’m essentially just guessing through my own observations until we have actual research on this) that is phenotypically similar to what we could call sabino, although it’s not true sabino as Arabians don’t carry sb1 (actual sabino). I will call the unmapped KIT mutation “sabino” in quotations just because most people will refer to these horses as being sabino even if it’s not sb1 and to distinguish it from actual sabino I will be using the quotation marks. I will also be using terms like ‘loud white’ or ‘chrome’ as synonyms.
Having looked at many many asil horses, their “sabino” appears to possibly be extension based with chestnuts showing the most white*typically* (think all of the chestnut Crabbet horses with tons of white), bays showing less white *typically*, and blacks showing the least *typically*, there are of course exceptions to my observations but this is the general pattern I’ve seen with how these colours show white patterns within asil horses. There is also some sort of white suppression gene(s) that I can’t really explain, but there are definitely variables that can affect the different ways white expresses on a horse and their descendants, even amongst full siblings (keep this in mind for later).
None of these horses exist in a vacuum. Although we likely to neatly categorize *insert example* influence from a horse’s parent for example, in reality there’s always going to be the influence of the other parent, the grandparents, the great grandparents, and so on.
I won’t be talking about partbred horses of mostly Arabian ancestry that aren’t asil such as Skowronek, Bask, their descendants, or other partbred horses like them, as they’re their own subject in my opinion. I’ve found the way loud white tends to express on the partbred horses to be different (it’s more expressive *typically* and loud white can more readily happen on black and bay horses) compared to asil horses.
Finally, I’m going to mention a few personal observations of my own Straight Egyptian mare. She is a horse who at a glance just seems like another bay, but actually has quite a bit interesting going on genetically, not unlike some horses I will be talking about later.
So with all of that preface, let me talk about Astraled/Abu Zeyd & address why I believe Astraled actually could’ve potentially been the sire of Domow, despite his lack of visible chrome.
Both stallions are sons of Mesaoud who is often noted for his “sabino”, and through their dams they’re both of Blunt desert import breeding. Abu Zeyd being a grandson of Rodania (who’s line I’ve likewise seen associated with lots of white for good reason) while Astraled is a son of Queen Of Sheba. Obviously, Abu Zeyd has far more white on him (note that he’s a chestnut) while Astraled is extremely unassuming and solid (again note the colour, he’s bay).
I can’t tell you the exact reason a Mesaoud son is not nearly as flashy as one would expect, my suspicion is kind of a cop out, but likely there’s some aforementioned white suppression we don’t quite understand at play that resulted in Astraled not having lots of chrome.
I’d like to mention Queen Of Sheba also had quite a bit of white even if it wasn’t quite like Mesaoud (again, a bay having loud white though to a lesser extent of a chestnut). Astraled’s maternal half brother, Ahmar, was bay as well yet he closely resembled their dam with his markings. Actually Ahmar had more white than his dam, I suspect Azrek might’ve had something interesting going on genetically underneath his grey.
There is some unknown genetic variable that caused Astraled to be solid while his brother had more white on him. What I’d give for photos of Astraled’s full siblings for comparison.
However, just because Astraled himself didn’t show white doesn’t mean he didn’t carry it.
My prime example that Astraled could produce white is his son Razaz (out of Rose Of Hind), I suggest the people who think just because Astraled was solidly marked that he surely couldn’t of sired Domow with all her white to compare the photo of Razaz to Domow. They’re extremely similar in appearance and if you told me they were twins, I’d honestly believe you. Both are bay, both have stripes reaching down to the lower lip, and both have four white socks that reach the mid cannon.
Conformationally they both look more alike to each other in my personal opinion than to Abu Zeyd and his get. With the heads, necks, and hindquarters of Razaz + Domow especially looking quite similar to me.
Though admittedly eyeballing conformation isn’t perfect for identifying ancestry. While you can see the family resemblance between them, the body & head of my mare + her full sister are built a little differently, with my mare taking more after their paternal grandmother while her sister looks more like their dam.
Going back to why we shouldn’t dismiss Astraled’s ability to produce white just because he is seemingly unassuming, I’d like to briefly go a little off topic to talk a little more about my mare, her sister, and their parents, I promise this will swing back to Astraled + his offspring. I won’t mention the markings of my mare’s grandparents, great grandparents, etc, just to try to condense this section, but they likewise are all quite interesting to me from a genetics perspectives.
If you looked at her from a distance, you’d assume my mare was just a plain bay with some white on her, when in actuality she is “sabino”. She has a stripe on her face that reaches to her lip and four white feet that reach mid cannon height (not unlike Domow or Razaz in her marking expression), with little white spots on her belly. She is also an extremely minimally expressed rabicano, with very faint white hairs on her flank, a few stray silver hairs in her tail, and a decent amount of silver hairs in her mane.
In contrast, her sister who is likewise a bay has a very similar facial marking but meanwhile only has two much shorter socks, while also having a much more obvious rabicano expression through a “skunk tail” like their maternal grandmother had.
Their bay dam wasn’t overtly obvious as a carrier of any sort of white (though she came from lines I know can produce loud white individuals) with a star + two low socks and some minimum rabicano. Their chestnut sire had a very large blaze and two very tall socks (frankly stockings would be a more accurate to describe them), with quite a bit of chrome on him.
So why am I mentioning all this? Because 1. I’d like to mention the variation between even full siblings (as well as their parents) that can affect the difference in white marking expression due to currently unknown genetic factors affecting the way white expresses. 2. Even what we think of as unassuming horses that don’t have big blazes and tall stockings can be very interesting from an ‘under the hood’ point of view on their genetics if you pay attention to all horses (not just the flashy ones). 3. Genetics aren’t cut and dried, my mare has much more white on her legs while her sister who is less obviously “sabino” also has a louder expression of rabicano.
Relating this back to Astraled and his offspring, when we look at two chestnut paternal half siblings of Razaz, the famous Gulastra (out of Gulnare) and Rim (out of Ridaa), we see two horses with big blazes and one stocking (with Gulastra having a small sock as well), but they don’t have the typical four tall stocks like we’d associate with Crabbet lines or a sabino-like phenotype.
Like Astraled, that doesn’t mean these horses don’t carry the genes required for a more typical “sabino” like expression, but rather there’s some unknown gene(s) controlling the white on Gulastra & Rim that wasn’t present with Razaz. I’d also like to note that both Rim’s & Gulastra’s stockings are much taller than the tallest sock on Razaz, so that could possibly be the assumed extension based white marking expression I notice with asil Arabians.
Although my focus is talking about Astraled, I’d like to note that Abu Zeyd would occasionally have offspring not as loudly marked as he was. Look at his foals Nusara (out of Noam) and Radi (out of Risalda), who are both quite unassuming with minimal markings for horses who have pedigrees that would otherwise suggest them to look like their sire (more loudly marked). Again, they don’t lack the gene(s) for loud white, rather there are unknown factors affecting the way in which white expresses.
Circling back to Razaz quickly, I’d like readers to also note his daughters Hazna (out of Hamasa) and Baraza (out of Bereyda), who are mares that look like clones of their father colour & marking wise. All are bays with a moderately tall socks, with the photo of Baraza allowing us to see a large stripe on her face. It’s not impossible to get chrome out of Astraled’s line, and I find it quite noteworthy to have 3 loudly marked Astraled descendants which are all bay like he was. It’s just seemingly that Astraled’s line appears to be one that is *typically* less expressive than his siblings’ lines when it comes to white markings.
Wadduda herself should be a part of the conversation as well in my opinion, as she has a fair amount of white on her.
Not tons of chrome like we see with many famous Crabbet horses with four stockings and big blazes, but nonetheless her wide stripe and the mid cannon height socks on her hind legs should be taken as possible evidence of her carrying the unmapped KIT mutation that I’m presuming asil Arabians to have. Her daughter Moliah had quite a bit of white on her, though it should be mentioned that she was sired by Hamrah (who along with his dam Urfah also had an interesting loud white expression).
So, all of this is a really long winded reply to a two year old comment that can be boiled down to genetics are very complicated, there is much we don’t know about, there that are as of now variables unknown, and above all else I believe we shouldn’t just dismiss a horse of carrying white because they don’t physically show a ton of white (especially if they come from lines known to produce white).
Although I can’t tell you whether Astraled was the sire of Domow, there is evidence that he could indeed produce quite a bit of white in his offspring on occasion.
Hi Laura, just to welcome you to DOW and acknowledge this first and substantive post of yours. Sorry I had overlooked it.
Laura, welcome. Many of today’s most active contributors grew up with DOW over the past 15 years. I am happy to read your very thoughtful first post, as to have you here as a DOW “daughter”.