Musings about an online pedigree site
I love the website allbreedpedigree.com . It’s one of those wikis that let you do whatever you want. Readers’ comments on the last entry I posted just put me in a subversive mood, so I went and changed the race of the mare Polka from “Arabian” to “Thoroughbred”.
For those who are not aware of the facts, the stallion Skowronek has multiple lines to the English Thoroughbred mare Polka, and so does everyone of his descendents. One of these several genealogical paths is as follows:
Skowronek –> his dam Jaskolka –> her sire Rymnik –> his sire Kortez –> his dam Gonta –> her dam Helada –> her sire Szumka III –> his sire Szumka II –> his dam Polka, an English Thoroughbred.
This makes Szumka II an Anglo-Arab (even if he is not registered as such), and someone needs to change that in allbreedpedigree too (I hope I am not starting a war). Now comes the million dollar question: if you cross the descendents of an Anglo-Arab like Szumka II to Arabians for several generations, do they become Arabian horses or will they always and forever be Anglo-Arabs? [okay, partbreds].
To be sure, this question is worth much more than a million dollars, if the prices of all Arabians horses that trace to Skowronekand other non-Asil Polish horses (about 97% of the world’s registered Arabian horse population; thank you, Lady Wentworth), are thrown in the balance.
.
There is 2 ways to “create” an Arab Horse:
-Breed two Asil horses with all ancestors Asils.
-Or (and this the majority of the Arab horses Waho registered including “Skworonek” and many others) start with a common mare, thoroughbred or native polish 19 th century mare and breed her to a Bedouin stallion her daughter will be 50 % Arab blood, breed her daughter to another Bedouin horse the product will be 75% Arab blood and son on until you reach 99.6 % of Arab blood. The Hungarians and the Poles use to call these horses “Full blooded Arabs”, not “Pure bred Arab Horse”.
But you cannot call “Skworonek”an Anglo-Arab, despite the fact that he has 9 non-Arab ancestors .Because the Anglo-Arab race have it is own standards who are not applied to “Skoworonek”.He is a “Full blooded Arab” or like Raswan called these horses “Araber Rassen”
Anyway in Britta Fahlgren Book “The Polish Arab Horse families” there is a chapter about SzumkaII and Polka and about the visit made by Lady Blunt to Antoniny (Skowronek birth place) and her comments about the horses she saw there. I will scan the pages and send them.
I have read the wonderful Polish book Mr. Achchar mentions. But I would respectfully disagree that Skowronek is the same as a “full blooded Arab”… because he simply is not! Perhaps there are just a few drops of the TB blood in his genetic makeup, but it is still there. Of course, I do not propose we remove them all from the registered Arabian World! But I will stay with Asil Arabian Horses, unless of course, I am creating one of my Anglo Arabs, which I dearly love! And even then, I want the Arab breeding to be only Asil.
Funny what you did on the pedigreequery Edouard!! 🙂
Joe, all good points. I fully agree with you.
I certainly agree they are not Anglo Arabs! But in the same breath, I think they are not the same as Asil Arabs either… and there are so many people that have no clue what the difference is. Perhaps you will be able to help a few understand with your wonderful blog.
Hi Edouard
I have read parts of your blog and found it very interesting. being breeder of SE’s myself I frquently have to meet various questions about differences etc. Especially I found the input you wrote about Skowronek and his lines back to Polka as an English Thorougbred mare. For many breeders this is an extremely hot theme and input like this is is like throwing gasoline on a fire. Do you, or any other following this blog, know if there are any further evidence that Polka in fact WAS a Thoroughbred mare?
Your sincerely
Olaf
We have to live with WAHO registred horses.I respect them there are wonderful horses.I do have in the”al Fadi Stables” in Damascus Syria a Saudi stallion received as a gift, his sire line is pure Egyptian in his dam line there is “Kurdo” trough “Manzo”(Who was bred and owned in Sao Paulo by the great Lebanese breeder Negib Audi).
His look and manners are as “Arab” as his neighbourg the Asil “Al Bark”.
I respect these horses as “sons of our horses” as I respect the Anglo_Arabs ,once I saw a 50% of(Arab blood) Anglo pretier than pure Arabs.
Unfortunately we have to live with the “Full blooded Arabs” as we have to live with the French stallions in the racing world.Sunday was runned in Longchamp ,Paris, the Qatar Arabian World Cup with 450.000 euros in prizes.All the horses where sons of French Stallions or sons of doubtful Saudi stallions like Amer.This to tell that if you want to reach a certain level in Arab racing today you have to use these stalions.Now there is a new kid on the block “Mansour el Awal” said to be an Anglo son of a thouroughbred,not a grand-son of a thouroughbred like Ba-Toustem.
Like Edouard said this a shame and a pity.More it is cheating.
I am not giving up. One day, these horses will be recognized for what they are: non-Asil.
Hi Olaf, welcome and glad you like the blog. I don’t mind gasoline. It’s time people take a hard look at the facts.
On Polka being a TB, check the works of the following people: Britta Fahlgren, Ursula Guttmann and Foppe Klynstra.
Why Skowronek called purebred Arabian?
If one knows that he will not Arab blood?
Why his Nachkomemn are then accepted by WAHO?
El Gadaa, it is not ………… strange.
Why Skowronek called purebred Arabian?
He leads English blood and Polish blood in him.
He was a handsome stallion, certainly, but not pure bred.
Nevertheless, his descendants from the WAHO recognized as purebred Arabians.
I think it’s vulgar.
El Gadaa was a thoroughbred stallion from the desert, you know his pedigree, his breeder, etc. ..
But he will not be recognized until today, and consequently his offspring in Bint Nafaa via Cleopatra not.
Even Sharkasi was recognized ………..
WAHO recognition is not that important if you breed asil Arabians Teymur. There are large numbers of asil desert-bred Arabians in many Middle Eastern countries that are not recognized by WAHO… Don’t worry, one day, soon inshallah, there will be a registry for all asil Arabians worldwide.
Yesterday,is to far away for the Asil.or
Soon, I hope you are right Edouard
Jackson
Edouard,
How can I help to get this done, world registry of the Asil Bedouin Horses.
This way to long in the making.
I hope all can be done with the Blood typing as well. This would answer a lot
Of questions. (Of what is out there)