Not an Arabian horse (anymore)
Photo gleaned on an online discussion where Lyman Doyle was asking about feedback on his Tamaam’s straight profile. Call this creature whatever you want, a snake, a seahorse, a mutant, “living art”, but not an Arab horse. This has gone too far.
This horse is Hajin and so is disqualified from being an Arabian horse.
even if his pedigree was pure as gold, he is so far off an arabian horse, that he has morphed into another breed.
“Over the last twenty years you have allowed the major trainers and judges to deform the physical appearance of the noble Arabian into an alpaca headed, giraffe necked, cow backed animal that could not flee a predator if its life depended upon it.”
Bravo, to your quote Miguel Acuna. Would be interested to know it’s source.
I believe the horse is El Rey Magnum. A horse that was “Specially bred for showing, and is step closer for perfection.” Despite the fact that horses can only breathe through their nose, and deforming their nose like this can cause very bad breathing problems, sense their nasal passages are not developed well to handle caved in spaces that can collapse on them.
I agree. I owned and showed primo offspring in the Witez II line, Serafix, Raffles, and Fadjur lines with utmost success and kindness to my animals. Like ANYONE who wants to exploit and modify authentic animals for extra money and “”doggie show changed and ‘new designer’s breeds mentalities”, they have destroyed the breed, now taken over by classless, ignorant peasant-educated types needing to get an identity via something or someone ELSE. AND money they THINK MEANS STATUS and CLASS level. Have they ever thought of not trying to out do old money CLASS and education, and authentic value and tradition by LEARNING something….like how to mold their OWN offspring into healthy beings and NOT pick on animals???? YEAH. RIGHT. UH HUH. WOULD ANYONE like to buy a 500+year old Amati???? Or Strad?? OOPS! Not shiny and newly created look enough for the phonies who don’t know better???? Who know it all…
El Rey was not bred for anything like that. His Breeder owned both parents, neither was extreme, and wanted to improve the mares shoulder for performance purposes. The colt was an anomaly. Good grief people get a grip. Trainers take what breeders send, and judges are the ones who encourage which direction breeding goes by choosing horses that are “prettier”. Think about it….
Great quote Miguel! I’m with Carrie, who is responsible for that quote?
The quote is so good that when I read it years ago I could not retain its author. In a few words it brings together a gigantic and painful reality!I promise just remember the author I will communicate it immediately.
“even if his pedigree was pure as gold, he is so far off an arabian horse, that he has morphed into another breed.”
Ha, but you praised Nimr because of his pedigree pure as gold … a preservationist breeder that is using horses like Nimr are on the same level as these showbreeders (I mention Nimr because he’s the worst I can remember to have seen in recent years being praised by preservationists simply because of his pedigree but he too has nothing to do anymore with the original Nejdi Koheilan as described by Rzewuski or Guarmani
And don’t say they didn’t exist. Look at the paintings of Alfred de Dreux, Adam Albrecht, Carle Vernet, Horace Vernet, Hippolyte Lalaisse, Huyot, Sucholdolski, Juliusz Kossak, Victor Adam, Volckers and so many other 18th & 19th century artists. Authentic, typey asil Arabians existed and they were the pride of and prize out of the desert.
Even in modern times you could find outside the straight Egyptians plenty of gorgeous asil Arabian horses that boasted type. As a teenager I have seen early nineties unloading Arab mares coming from Tunesia in France, they could participate straight away to a ECAHO A-show.
Antez, Sumeyr, Moulouki, Prince Hal, Rustem, Saadi, Plantagnet, Shahpoor, Tripoli, … are names without even looking up pictures that prove that it is possible to breed gorgeous, typey asil Arabians that boast nobility
It is difficult to judge Tamaan based upon one picture and he looks like a nice horse but I do miss the nobility that I can for instance see in Saafaddan, also with a straight profile. But I have seen several pictures of Saafaddan and only 1 of Tamaan so maybe Tamaan is more than just a clean pedigree (don’t post pictures of horses if the picture doesn’t credit the horse)
Nimr is not far off the Arabian type. He is one type of Arabian that was even found in Nejd (read your classics again, cf. the Koheilan Krush mare of Ibn Rashid described in detail in Pilgrimage to Najd and the Koheilan Shawaf mare pictured in Bahrain by J. Forbis in 1971).
The horses you are citing are other types. And Vernet, De Dreux, etc. were also in love with one type, which ended up being THE ONLY type thanks to the show standard and the Western romanticizing of the Arabian horse.
Paraphrasing Edouard: an Arabian horse is strength and power with elegance. Somehow the strength and power got lost there.
That said, I would love to see that horse after about a year out on grass. Assuming he had not had surgical alterations (not an easy assumption), we might all be surprised.
I do wonder why they want a stallion that looks like a hyper-feminized mare.
In addition to his caved in back- from his stiff braced pose, you would also have to deal with his too small legs. There doesn’t appear to be enough substance there. I could be wrong because the photo could well be shopped. If his owners are interested in fixing him they should get a few dozen doses of semen to freeze, geld him, give daily turnout at first by himself. Then gradually introduce him to a herd environment where dominant older geldings could teach him some manners. Who knows they might end up with a horse thats useful.
best
Bruce Peek
“Nimr is not far off the Arabian type. He is one type of Arabian that was even found in Nejd (read your classics again, cf. the Koheilan Krush mare of Ibn Rashid described in detail in Pilgrimage to Najd and the Koheilan Shawaf mare pictured in Bahrain by J. Forbis in 1971).”
I could be wrong but I remember from Pilgrimage to Najd that the Blunts were not that greatly impressed by Ibn Rashids horses, that they only got to Hail at the edge of the Naid and never ventured into the Najd because they feared the danger from Saud and his tribes. They considered the Anazeh horses (out of reach of Saud) the best but never got to see any of the horses from the acclaimed breeders in the Najd because it controlled by Saud.
I also recall reading in several books that the different Saud’s that rose to power were all famous or feared for taking away the best mares from their subjects. Think it was Rzewuski who mentioned that he was able to acquire some mares in Najd normally never available because the owners either feared ending up with nothing if Saud would take their mare, either feared to be forced to join Saud in battle.
There are numerous references that the finest specimen had were collected by Saud as well as by the Egyptians (partially by the defeating the first Saudi empire in 1818 but the Egyptians kept on collecting from the desert into the 20th century).
The reference of Rzewuski on Saud taking the best mares in Najd refered to the 2nd Saudi state and in the 3rd Saudi state Ibn Saud sacked all the war mares of his tribes to end the raiding of the Ikwhan and between tribes.
“The horses you are citing are other types. And Vernet, De Dreux, etc. were also in love with one type, which ended up being THE ONLY type thanks to the show standard and the Western romanticizing of the Arabian horse.”
They were not and and it is sufficient to look at all the references, western and arab, to see the same was valued.
Type is maybe the wrong word, maybe nobility is a better word to use.
Look at Davenport, the man with the Sultan’s letter (order) to buy the best horses available at the time. I don’t have a picture of all his foundation horses in my head but I recall they were all noble horses boasting Arabian type.
Look at yourself showing the pictures of the Arabian horses of your childhood, all noble horses boasting type.
In my childhood we went on summer vacations almost every year in France and I visited all breeders & Haras National I could find within distance. At the time most of their stock originated from North-Africa (Algeria/Tunesia) and they were stunning. Unfortunately a decade later, France started to play a leading role in promoting flat racing with Arab horses and they were all bred away with French racing lines.
Arabian horses are about their amazing intelligence, the friendship they offer, their athletic ability, power & endurance, their versatility to satisfy not only flat racers, endurance riders and show people but also western riders, dressage riders, drivers, etc and above all their nobility that has no other equestrian equal.
If you want to promote asil Arabians, stop whining and start breeding BEAUTIFUL ATHLETES like Babson, Schimanski, Pritzlaff, Cravers, etc.
I know we like the same horses (just not Nimr) so not intended personally but it must be more than 30-years that I hear preservation breeders whine about asil Arabian lines getting extinct and getting crossed with proven partbreds but look at THE S..T 90% of the preservationist are breeding (with).
Breeding asil horses based upon strains and their own characteristics like Edouard is definitively a step in the right direction away from the narrowminded ideas of breeding in extreme narrow pools of straight babson, pure davenport, etc Maybe some new Sumeyrs and Mouloukis will emerge like that instead of small inbred 13hands poneys.
“small inbred 13 hands poneys.” Yes Patrick, but to do that breeders here would have have access to semen from , for example, the tiny number of Asil French horses as well as the fairly small number of world wide asils. There really needs to be a
frozen semen system. It can be done and the results would, I believe immediately prove themselves.
Best
Bruce Peek
Patrick,
You wrote:
“Ha, but you praised Nimr because of his pedigree pure as gold … a preservationist breeder that is using horses like Nimr are on the same level as these showbreeders (I mention Nimr because he’s the worst I can remember to have seen in recent years being praised by preservationists simply because of his pedigree but he too has nothing to do anymore with the original Nejdi Koheilan as described by Rzewuski or Guarmani”
Where can I find out more about Nimr and the preservationists that are using his descendents?
I see that it is Nimr Shabarec that is being referred to here, and not the Courthouse desertbred Nimr.
Correct. Patrick does not believe Nimr represents a desirable Arabian type.
Type is one thing … he lacks nobility that a breeding stallion should have and has a very poor conformation to start with (of course based upon the pictures I have seen)
Poor conformation ! What other stupid remark is it possible to hear from you Patrick ? Stop write all these “bullsh…” about Nimr. If you don’t like him, and you only see him by pictures, this is your point of view and you can say that. But to write that he does not have nobility, does not represent a type of arabian horse or I don’t know what other stupid thing you can tell, please stop that, and I am polite. I could have answered so many times to your posts on this blog, but I prefer not to feed the troll. Keep your point of view of what is the original horse describe by Rzewuski, this egocentric man if I refer to his “prose” (sorry for the french word) and its exaggerating way of writing (romantic way of writing), and painters, these artists that have their own type in their mind and also that have their artistic view that can be really different sometimes from the subject (is it not the role of an artist to propose its own point of view ?).
Of course a picture doesn’t says everything and sometimes gives a completely wrong impression but don’t publish pictures of a horse on a forum or blog if you can’t deal with comments.
Leaving his convex instead of concave head out of the picture: on the pictures I have seen of Nimr, he has at least an under-slung neck, a fairly steep croup with high sacral bone and hesitating about steep hind legs. That is without taking into consideration his head with tiny small eyes (or good eyes but extremely big head). He was apparently first owned and raced by Jean-Luc Jardel of Ecurie de Syrah, a stud of French racehorses for whom raced at least once in France (not placed) and didn’t use him for breeding at first glance. There were comments how nicely this horse would mature …
Came up this morning on http://www.elevage-du-sureau.com. Don’t know if they are (all) asil but old french & tunesian lines at first glance. Although obviously no showhorses, these are typey asil stallions with nobility and good conformation. Except maybe one bay
I can also perfectly see the value of for instance the other imported Syrian stallions like Hussam al Shamal (which I would have bred if frozen semen would available, I enquired once for it – he seems to be disappeared in obscurity again?), Mokthar, Najm Yarob, Mahboob Halab (needs maturing on pictures, can see the potential), Shahm (real pity that he passed away), Dahess Hassaka (looks like he’s siring great foals).
But I really fail to see the qualities that Nimr could have as a stallion. There have been several other well-known stallions with similar faults (for instance Mahomed) but at least you could see their good points as well. Besides a good shoulder, I can see none with Nimr. Besides his head, he does have similar silhouette (and same underslung neck) than the Pompadour stallion Dahman in this picture http://daughterofthewind.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/dahman.jpg (but not quite to other pictures I remember of Dahman.
I’m btw a bit surprised to see that Dahess Hassaka is a SCID carrier? I remember discussions on forums with Hansi that it was probably a defect slipped in but if Dahess is a carrier, SCID thrives in the craddle?
Ah I’ve just read your post and you made my day ! Thanks a lot to compare Nimr to the magnificent Dahman. One of the best desert bred import to France ! For you it seems to be really bad but for me this is terrific. After saying that I think it’s not necessary now to debate with you for your description of his conformation, so wrong except the high sacral bone (for that you are right). We all understood which type of arabian horse you like and it will be too difficult to explain you that this is one of the type of pure arabian horse and what he can bring to all western horses (first “le sang”, “la trempe” (sorry for french words), mental, and so, not only his conformation that is really strong and good in fact : have you only see his bones ?). If you want to use Hussam al Shamal, he is at Arnault Decroix place in Normandie, not so far from Belgium… and I know that he covered some mares this year.
For elevage du sureau, for a part, we have almost the same line coming from old asil french/tunesian/algerian bloodline due to fact that it comes from Robert Mauvy’s breeding.
Patrick: Couldn’t get that one picture of Nimr to come up on my antiquated puter, but as I recall he was rather thin and ribby and had his neck pulled way up high…But the most significant thing I remember about him was his oustanding length of thigh compared to his gaskin( which you could see cuz he was thin and ribby) Hate to sound like a broken record but if you go on dreamhorse and look at the arabs there you will see lots and lots of horses with tiny hindquarters. Beleive it or not there was a time 45 years ago when sporthorses were nearly all Thoroughbreds. Now they are all Warmbloods. That happened because Warmblood breeders developed a better product. If Asil breeders want to prove their pudding they could do the same. They would start with an advantage if they could get some cradle country asil genetics going for them- they could avoid the crooked leg issues- high heel low heel front legs that many farriers will tell you was a legacy of the Polish horses brought into the american gene pool during the boom days of the 70’s and 80’s.
best
Bruce
@Guillaume:
I of course expected your reaction when I compared Nimr to Dahman – as said, I can only judge by picture and although the silhouette of Nimr in the pictures I have seen reminds to Dahman, he clearly is not Dahman. Same silhouette, on this picture Dahman seems to show also an underslung neck but I suspect it is more because the horse is pulling back on the moment of the picture. Dahman seems to have a really great long powerful croup and head looks more refined. But the length, silhouette, shoulder and overall silhouette show similarities.
France has an incredible history with the Arabian horse but it is also a different one than other countries. It is basically 100% military and the stallions depots were run by the French state by & for the military. I don’t think the commander of the state studs in Algeria or Tunisia gave anything about original Arabian type – all they cared about was able to breed a cavalry horse with same endurance and preferably a bit more speed than the barbs of the local insurgents in the Magreb. Same for the stallion depots in France, all they had to do was breed a light cavalry horse.
I have somewhere in my library photocopies (but can’t locate them for the moment) of the comments made on Arab stallions entered in the Haras Nationaux – must have been from in the eighties-early nineties. They clearly describe several stallions as not enough breed characteristics to breed pure Arabs but indicate positive traits for cross breeding ponies, anglo’s etc. I think same could apply for many of the original imports. The military didn’t necessary buy them for the breed characteristics but because they had the legs and shoulders to breed good military remounts.
@Bruce: there were several pictures showing Nimr with underslung neck. I have also taken several pictures of my horses showing an underslung neck because of the moment although they don’t have an underslung neck. I delete those pictures and make sure I make a new one. If multiple pictures of a horse are published with underslung neck and steep croup, I assume that is because the horse is like that.
That a horse is ribby is no problem for me, some stallions are difficult to keep in the flesh during the breeding season. Although I have many more showier pictures and nice poses, this is my absolute favorite picture of one of my stallions https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/11/20/41/71/fa_wan12.jpg, because for me it shows him in the best possible working condition and yes a lean Arabian stallion can show his ribs. My wife, coming out of warmblood environment simply hates this picture.
frightening turn of events and it just keeps a rolling on..the occasion extreme head okay but this hyper production is really an insult to the Arabian Horse. It was the fine foreface and jibbah that is so beautiful not a carved out dish, and the accompaning loss of proper structure- that same important sructure that makes the Arabian horse so very perfect in all its movements-it is a crime really.
Shame to everyone who bred this poor creature to be like this. I don’t find him horrific or ugly, but find his story tragic. So many selfish people who only care about money, attention, or beauty standards of horses, that would otherwise not be achieved without hurting your animals. Arabians do have slightly concave faces. But that is only slightly! And should not be pushed to this extreme. Horses are only able to breathe though their nose. So limiting the proper space for their nasal passages to breathe will be damned to have consequences. Just like with pugs.
Pugs can have an array of health problems. And so can other dogs that have incredibly shortened noses. So these kinds of people, who hurt their horses for money and “desired horse appearances” have to go. Let the horse be specially bred, but without hurting them.
Who is this? Bloodlines? And where is he? (Interested person who likes him wants to know.)
My stallion, Lu-Nor Dynasty, was the perfect blend of *Shaik Al Badi and solid Crabbet bloodlines. He was typey, long “snakey” (as you call it) neck, an extravagant trot, and sired quality babies. The Arabian horse that you are criticizing in the photo does not have a “straight profile”, nor is a cariacature of an Arabian horse. His overall conformation is excellent, although I would like to see a tad more forearm.
Jugding a horse by a single photograph is the biggest mistake Gladys Brown Edwards made in her famous book about Arabian horse foundation stock. A friend mine aquired a copy of a 1955 and 1956 Crabbet Stud promotion movie. When you see the horses in the film, alive and moving, their beauty and excellence become immediately apparent. We were surprised to see how they resembled the horses my friend was breeding, not the dreary and dull photos in Brown’s book. My friend was a big fan of *Serafix and she owned one of his most illustrious sons.
As for me, I wanted to breed a solid Arabian horse that could win at halter, trot like a park horse, and perform well in my field of expertise: dressage. I owned three *Serafix-bred horses and several Egyptian/Crabbet horses with *Shaikh Al Badi close up on the sire line. These horses were not only extremely typey with huge trots, they had good height and wonderful personalities.
That said, I find the horse in the above photograph very elegant and a stunning example of what a good Arabian should be. I bred champion Arabians for over 20 years and have schooled dressage horses must longer than that.
You people need to stop yammering nonsense because it’s clear to me that either you don’t know what constitutes a good Arabian. If you can, find the 1953-1960’s editions of The Arabian Horse Journal. It was one of the first – if not the first – comprehensive Arabian horse magazines published in the USA. All the foundation stock is those journals, complete with photographs, show records, and so on. It is from those horses that the American Arabian came and set the standard by which all Arabian horses are now judged.
That said, there were a few stallions who produced horses with bad legs and everyone back then knew who they were. The only fault in American breeding is overuse of a few famous studs, and breeders must diversify. It is what will crash the thoroughbred industry with too much inbreeding to Native Dancer, whose lower legs were a disaster, and hence, we see the ruin of great horses like Ruffian and Eight Belles.
The horse in photograph that you are discussing has all the good qualities of an Arabian: dishy head with large expressive eyes and small curved ears, a high -set neck with good length and a fine throatlatch, laid-back shoulders and good width in the chest, correct legs with no tie-in bone and no glaring faults, a solid body (no waspy), a long level croup with good width in the hips, flat smooth muscling throughout, and refinement throughout. You must remember that refinement is a key to quality of an Arabian horse. You want bones that are strong and dense. Big coarse bone is not dense.
If you disagree with anything I’ve written, that’s your privilege. What is not proper is to dis a fine horse because you hate halter horses and think any horse that can stand beautifully must have a million faults. As I previously stated, it was very clear in the 1980s and the 1990s which studs produced foals with poor unpinning and who the judges were that looked at a horse from the shoulders up. The horse in the photo does not appear to be one those “cariactures” of the Arabian horse – as we used to say.
In closing, the ultimate test of a good Arabian is can it run? My top stud, Lu-Nor Dynasty and my Lu-Nor mares came from top racing stock. In addition to be solid horses, they were exotic and my mare had a particularly long neck, which I guess most of you would find appalling. Please study more!
Thank you for expressing your opinion. You are entitled to it, and I to mine. It all depends on the standards against which you make your assessment. My standard is the original desert horses that created the breed. They did not look like this.