Not an Arabian horse: Gosse d’Avril (b. 1967)
In the spirit of continuing to pick on French “Arabians”, here is an old picture of Gosse d’Avril (Gosse du Bearn x Fleur d’Avril), a horse any English Thoroughbred breeder would want to own..
A blog on desert arabian horses, past, present and future
In the spirit of continuing to pick on French “Arabians”, here is an old picture of Gosse d’Avril (Gosse du Bearn x Fleur d’Avril), a horse any English Thoroughbred breeder would want to own..
This horse either never raced or raced with no significant results,because he had no impact in the racing world ,despite of his look.
anyway who gave him this look his sire or dam?because many times horses looks like their grand parents instead of their parents (Il kheil bit rid ila jdouda)
His sire Gosse du Bearn was a
fullbrother of [correction: the sire of] Manganate..[Merci di-Francesco pour la correction]
La seule définition juridique d’un cheval de Pur-Sang arabe est celle qui a été addeptée par la WAHO en Assemblée Générale, je crois en 1978 à San Francisco:
“Est arabe un cheval enregistré dans un studbook reconnu par WAHO.”
Le modèle importe peu; et heureusement, car nous connaissons des cv de PS arabe, issus de bons chevaux de show qui ressemblent à des poneys de montagne; j’ai élevé des anglo arabe dignes de participer à des shows;
et Lady Wentworth cite plusieurs chevaux de PS anglais dignes de représenter leurs ailleuls fondateurs arabes de la race: vu photo de MAHMOUD gagnant du Derby dans le temps record (150 ans) record qui a tenu 39 ans. +++ jmv
Dear Sir,
If you want to be regarded as a serious interlocutor, we have, first, to check the information you are provided with, and I’m afraid you’d be a victim of the joke, called in France “Diner de Cons”, where an innocent person is invited [to a dinner], just to make a fool of her. You are absolutly free to give your own opinion on the French Arabian breeding (no fatwa!…), but if you don’t want to be involved in any controversy, I think you have to know that:
– Gosse d’Avril isn’t a brother to Manganate
– In France,Arabian horses never competed in thoroughbred races, but only in Anglo-Arab (50%)ones, and none of our great sires (Denouste, St-Laurent, Manganate, Kesberoy) never defeated an Anglo. As for the poor Ba Toustem, he never produced a single winner in his life (strange, for a…)
– Your photo of El Sbaa is, alas, a false one (The authentic photo would certainly be too shocking for.. )
– The photos of Denouste you are presenting have been picked up in an article I published 20 years ago in :
– If you are making a business with this kind of polemic, what can be the credibility about your website?
So, take my advice: be cautious with your well known dealers of information, who are hiding and make of you [un con]…but just in professional circles.
Best regards,
Jean-Claude Di-Francesco
rectification : after read:<>
in place of Gosse d’Avril :Gosse du Béarn half brother to St Laurent sire of Manganate
Cher jmv,
C’est vrai; Gosse d’Avril et ses pairs sont arabes sur papier. Il sont aussi arabes d’un point de vue juridique, car enregistres dans un studbook dument reconnu par la WAHO. C’est justement cette definition de la WAHO qui pose probleme de mon point de vue, et que je remets en question ici; le fait qu’elle soit la definition dominante n’en fait pas necessairement la meilleure..
Dear M.Di Fransesco
I read with great interest your response to M.el Dahdah allow me to add the following:
-What do you mean about Al Sbaa shocking photo,I do have the Rieux de Madron original book with the Al Sbaa photo he will win in any Show.I will be glad to send to you anytime.If you have this schocking photo please do send it.
you wrote”As for the poor Ba Toustem, he never produced a single winner in his life (strange, for a…)”
-Could you tell me how many pure Arabs Ba Toustem sired beetween 1961 and 1975? According to my informations he sired 17 anglos and selle francais(Not bad for a “poor Arab” ,while Saint Laurent sired 26) and 8 Arabs (2 stallions and 6 mares).
how can you judge a horse on 6 mares and 2 stallions at a time when there was no races for Arabian?Moreover the fact that the product of a stallion are not good performers at the race track does not mean at all that he is not an Anglo.
How many products Dormane have (more than 350 )?are they all winners?No.
We have in lebanon a Ba Toustem grand son (by the dam side) named Uajik el Masan ,his sons are winning against part bred Arabians ,for more information please write to M.Nabil Nasrallah general manager of the Beirut race track who may give you more informations ,are they running because of Masan”s blood or of the the Anglo-Arab blood of Ba Toustem? sparca@cyberia.com.lb.
Moreover as a breeder, you must know that sometimes that “Blood” skip one generation,take for exemple “Secretariat” the most famous racehorse in the USA for the last 50 years,he is transmiting trough his daughters and there is many exemple like this.
As for the “Diner de cons” dont think that you are playing the part of Thierry Lhermite, soon you will discover that your part is more the late Jacques Villeret one.
Bien a vous
Joe Achcar
BaToustem products (if the list is incomplete please let me know)
M BA TOUSTEM HISTOIRE DE RIRE2 ANGLOARABIAN TB Edit
ANJOU3 ch H 1961 BA TOUSTEM ALTISE ARABIAN Edit
ARBALETE ch M 1963 BA TOUSTEM ABLETTE ARABIAN Edit
BAELAN C 1964 BA TOUSTEM ETINCELANTE3 ANGLOARABIAN TB Edit
BALERIA M BA TOUSTEM RIVALERIE ANGLOARABIAN TB Edit
BAZOOKA4 b H 1961 BA TOUSTEM BARTAVELLE II ANGLOARABIAN TB Edit
BENJAMINE3 ch M 1970 BA TOUSTEM BOSSA NOVA3 ARABIAN Edit
FLORISE DE ROBIN M 1971 BA TOUSTEM ELBE6 ANGLOARABIAN TB Edit
HAMIDJA b F 1963 BA TOUSTEM HYPSA ANGLOARABIAN TB Edit
HELIOPSIS3 M BA TOUSTEM CAMPANULE4 SELLE FRANCAIS Edit
HFIFA b M 1966 BA TOUSTEM DJELFA2 ARABIAN Edit
JESABELLE3 M 1972 BA TOUSTEM SEETADEVI ANGLOARABIAN TB Edit
MAHABBA3 ch F 1962 BA TOUSTEM ZARIFA3 ARABIAN Edit
MOURADALLAH ch H 1961 BA TOUSTEM AOUDA EL HABIBA ARABIAN Edit
NON HO L ETA M BA TOUSTEM – Edit
NON HO LETA ch M 1964 BA TOUSTEM HISTOIRE DE RIRE2 ANGLOARABIAN TB Edit
SAFIA3 ch F 1963 BA TOUSTEM ALBA13 ARABIAN Edit
SAINT SORNIN ch F 1962 BA TOUSTEM LA FILLE DOR ANGLOARABIAN TB Edit
SBAH HANI dk ch M 1969 BA TOUSTEM KERCHA ARABIAN Edit
SHEILA11 b F 1963 BA TOUSTEM MA NINI ANGLOARABIAN TB Edit
SPLENDEUR2 M 1966 BA TOUSTEM CAPRIOLE9 ANGLOARABIAN TB Edit
SUZETTE5 blk/br F 1962 BA TOUSTEM ZETTE ANGLOARABIAN TB Edit
TANCELLA M 1966 BA TOUSTEM ETINCELANTE3 ANGLOARABIAN TB Edit
TOPINAMBOUR3 ch H 1963 BA TOUSTEM REVILLE2 ANGLOARABIAN TB Edit
TOTEM2 ch C 1975 BA TOUSTEM ROSELYNE ANGLOARABIAN TB Edit
__________________________________________________
A JVM
Vous dites:
“Le modèle importe peu; et heureusement, car nous connaissons des cv de PS arabe, issus de bons chevaux de show qui ressemblent à des poneys de montagne”
reponse: peut etre, mais ils ne ressemblaient pas a des Anglo -Arabes
“j’ai élevé des anglo arabe dignes de participer à des shows”
reponse: Bravo ,au moins ils ressemblaient a des Arabes,et non pas a des Thouroughbred en miniature.
” Lady Wentworth cite plusieurs chevaux de PS anglais dignes de représenter leurs ailleuls fondateurs arabes de la race: vu photo de MAHMOUD gagnant du Derby dans le temps record (150 ans) record qui a tenu 39 ans”
Reponse :excellente constatation ,car au cas ou vous l’ignorez, les chevaux, ressemblent plus a leurs grands-parents qu’a leur parents,c’est porquoi Ba-Toustem et Gosse du Bearn ou d’Avril ,peu importe, ressemblent a des thouroughbreds leurs grands-parents.
merci pour votre collaboration a notre site :vous apportez ,beaucoup ,d’eau a notre moulin.
Dear Sirs,
General discussion:
I must have the smallest (not the slowest) arabian horses(1M30/1M40)of the planet like they were in the nedj at the origin.
Will it be considered that they have been crossed with shetland?… Or all the others
are note pure because they are taller?…
Kind regards – Arnault Decroix
I do train “Nazek” a mare who is only 1.43 1/2m high ,she runned only once and won over much taller horses in the Lattaquia race track ,Syria, 2 month ago.
Cher Edouard and Mr Achcar,
Ba Toustem a eu beaucoup plus que 17 produits.
C’est triste que vous ne soyez pas capable d’entendre ce qu’un spécialiste comme Mr Di Francesco peut vous dire.
Avoir des idées c’est bien, connaitre la vraie histoire c’est mieux.
Et cacher la vraie histoire c’est encore mieux.
Dear William
First of all we respect Monsieur Di Francesco experience,as a trainer, breeder and race horse owner.
Unfortunately he is not responsible of the breeding of Saint Laurent ,Flipper; other wise we will have sued him for cheating; dear William cheating on Arab horse origin (Claiming that he is an Arab when in fact he is an Anglo in order to win races .) is a crime, like counterfeiting money,or cheating in a Casino:the punishment is Jail.
This was easy in in a time where blood typing were not required and DNA testing did not existed.
BA TOUSTEM
I reseached the “S.I.R.E” on the Haras Nationaux website, they dont have the Ba Toustem production ,if you know that he had more than 17 registered products, please name them as I did for the 17 I found.
You wrote that we did not listen on what M.di Francesco wants to say.I have already answered all his remarks (please read above).
But I did’nt realise that he was also an expert in movies (the French blockbuster “le diner de cons”) !!
Please read well my respons, in 2008 I wrote
” As for the “Diner de cons” dont think that you are playing the part of Thierry Lhermite(THE CLEVER), soon you will discover that your part is more the late Jacques Villeret one (THE STUPID or “le con” in French slang).
Two years later,you see it did not take so long to my prediction being realised.Let’s see who is playing now the part of the “Stupid”or “LE CON” as Di Francesco wrote.
The French breeders horses are not able to win an international race(all won by Amer and Tiwik products) and they not selling a horse to the Gulf Sheikh and Princes (please see the Arqana sales 2010 results),I’m sorry,my mistake,the only horses they are able to sell today is their best racing mares to the Gulf where they are covered by Amer or Tiwaik.
N’est pas critique de cinema qui veut mon cher William.
Au proverbe qui dit
“Il n’ya plus sourd que celui qui ne veut pas entendre et plus aveugle que celui qui ne veut pas voir”
il faudrait ajouter
“Il n’ y a plus con que celui qui se croit tres intelligent”
Je vous demande:
Qui joue aujourdhui le role de Jacques Villeret “le Con”, Di Francesco ou Edouard ?
As you wtote (without adding any new information) that Ba Toustem had more than 17 product .If you have more information please be kind enough to post them.
Dear William
As you rightly wrote
“Avoir des idées c’est bien, connaitre la vraie histoire c’est mieux”
Roughly in English”having ideas is good,but knowing the true story is better”
following your advise I tried to know the true story of French Anglo Arabs disguised into Arabs.
.Please find below a testemony by a French Arab horse breeder:
http://www.orient-arabians.com
on
www. cheval-arabe.goodbb.net/discussion
I quote Orient-Arabians.com
” Erick seriez vous naïf ? tout le monde il est beau tout le monde il est gentil ?
les arabes ne servaient qu’à la course dans les années 50 – 60 et couraient avec les anglos, leur chance de gagner sur courtes distances étaient nulles.. mon oncle était jockey et j’ai grandi dans le milieu course…..et qui dit course dit argent, monnaie, pépètes, fric !!! et les moyens d’en gagner…il n’y a pas beaucoup de race de chevaux capable de prendre 20 cm en 4 ou 5 générations… je suis en 5ème et 6ème génération à la maison et j’ai du varier de 2 cm en taille sur mes poulains…le poulain anglo de deux ans avec les poulinières ce n’est pas une légende ! je l’ai encore vu faire ici sur des trotteurs dans les années 80, les juments ne faisaient jamais de retour de châleur ! les HN le savaient mais fermaient les yeux car les poulains gagnaient et faisaient de la pub pour leurs présumés pères.”
“au fait vous voulez un cas précis : Ba Toustem de père anglo.. le jour ou Bacchantara est allée à la sailli Djerba Oua avait une baisse de régime et l’étalonnier a passé un anglo, tout le monde le savait…”
To make a long story short: Orient-Arabians wrote that the day when “Bacchantara” Ba Toustem’s dam went to be covered by Djerba Oua. the stallion was ill ,so she was covered by an Anglo Arab instead,everybody knew that story….”
you can always write to
orient-arabians@wanadoo.fr
for more information.
As M.Di Francesco is a movie fan mentionning “Le diners des cons” to Edouard ,I will suggest him to see, the French movie starring many great French movie stars:
LES TRICHEURS, THE CHEATERS (1958) Drama / Romance
Dir: Marcel Carné
Cast: Pascale Petit, Andréa Parisy, Jacques Charrier, Laurent Terzieff, Jean-Paul Belmondo
“Qui seme le vent recolte la tempete”
“who sows the wind reaps the whirlwind”
French proverb