Post-Arabians

By Edouard Aldahdah

Posted on November 21st, 2011 in General

I am now more and more convinced that the Arabian horse of the show type has veered away from the original Arabian horse so much that it now forms a distinct breed.

There is hardly anything in common anymore between the kind of horse featured on this blog and the ‘living art’ featured in halter shows (whether it is asil or not asil, pedigree-wise). We are now at a stage whether different names should be used to designate two different breeds of horses.

I suggest the term “Post-Arabian” for the show type.

76 Responses to “Post-Arabians”

  1. Dear Teymur and everybody,
    Your thoughts are very interesting . For sure we have a totally different situation today compared to the high times of ASIL breeding in Arabia, both in the West and in the oriental countries. We westerners have to “dwell in the past” and I understand by this term that we have to keep in mind the sort of horse of bedouin times in order not the follow the road of breeding “Post-Arab horses”. And also the breeders in the Arab home countries have to dwell in the past because the circumstances that had formed the Arab horse are gone for ever (with some exceptions).

    From the long discussion now we see that many of us are aware of our difficulties to preserve and that we have no answer to one fact: There is no more the bedouin life that was the guarantee that the bedouin horse was formed within it.
    Matthias

  2. I wish that Joe Achcar were still here to comment!
    At least he has been spared witnessing the horror that now rages in Syria.
    Dear Teymur,
    In my experience Bedouin people of today, even those who no longer have anything to do with horses still are absolutely clear in their minds that horses are either Arab (Asil, Koheilan…) or Kadish. This, to those to whom I have spoken is just how it is, as clear cut as the division of dog and cat,this is coming out of their own mouths, not a western myth or romanticism. Those of whom I am speaking include people living in the desert, or on the edges from Syria down to the Jordan- Saudi border and one very old man with whom I had a long conversation in Sinai about 25 years ago. It also seems to be similarly understood by some horse people in the Maghreb. This is just my experience, I have not spent time in the Arabian peninsula so cannot comment.
    Cheers
    Lisa

  3. You should start reading your classic Arabian horse literature first – I don’t mean Judith Forbis by classic.

    That the bedu of the north was breeding Arabian horses “Polish style” along with their treasured asils can be found in a several books.

    I don’t know them all by head but at least in Guarmani’s, Rzezuwuski’s and Raswan’s books is written how the bedu used common mares to breed war horses. Described as Kadish in Raswan’s books, don’t remember exactly how Guarmani and Rzewuski named them (Guarmani’s term ressembled that of Raswan but was somewhat different – Rezwuski named the real thing “Nejdi Koheilan” and the pure thing descending from common mares but looking like the real thing “Koheilan” – he even catalogued his own breeding program as mainly koheilan).

    They all described that this type of bedouin horse looked like the real thing but could not maintain his type without re-generation by the pure Arab from the south (or Nejdi Koheilan as Rezwuski catalogued them)

    They all clearly describe how the tribes of the north had to regenerate with pure stallions from the south to keep the nobility of these horses, else they would degenerate to the common horses they descended from.

    Pure mares were owned by several men, if you were to capture a good horse, (looking like a pure mare or almost), would you run behind a camel or horse on foot because your captured mare was kadish and not pure – and if she was as good as any warmare why wouldn’t you breed her.

    Fact remains that the bedu way of life, raiding & living on poor land, shaped the pure Arabian horse and that today there is no subsitute way of life to harden either pure bred or asil Arabian horses.

    Based upon “your classic litterature” it is safe to say that although all asil Arabians can be traced to the desert, there is at least a serious chance some European or American buyers went home with a Kadish/normal Koheilan instead of the Nejdi Koheilan.

    Might be useful info to keep in the back of your head and a good argument to focus on that 5% exceptional and noble asils – in case one of your asil’s ancestors coming out of the desert was a kadish, bound to degenerate to his common ancestors unless regenerated.

  4. Patrick,
    I have read, believe me!! 😉
    I too have read repeatedly that the source of pure blood was always regarded as being the south. When discussing our horses with a family in Southern Syria they commented that they loved our purebred mare and that she looked Asil. They described our Arab x Welsh cob mare as ‘Shemali’ …’Northern’ which reinforces your point.
    I maintain that the distinstion between Asil (Koheilan) and Kadish is still current in Bedouin people’s minds and has been for very much longer than 200yrs, whether all horses sold to Europeans or Americans as Asil(Koheilan) were in fact so needs to be debated on a case by case basis and obviously in some cases we will never know for sure.
    As you say it is important to select the best 5%, I think that the whole essence of Edouards post though is to highlight the conflict that has arisen over which criteria are used to decide what constitues the best, clearly those criteria used in the showring are at odds with what many posting on here, and all my Arab riding friends would use. This is where Bruce and Yasser’s suggestion comes in.

    After all this we are just going to continue to ride our lovely Arab horses and compete them in open competition, they can speak for themselves!!( At least I will when I shake off this flu which has kept me within reach of a computer!!!)

    cheers
    Lisa

  5. sorry Patrick, Could you clarify for me I always felt that the Northern tribes did have Asil (Koheilan) mares as well as some Kadish mares who may have Turcoman blood or whatever, but that they certainly did have Asil mares that they had always maintained throughout their migrations, are you saying the same or are you saying that all mares of Northern tribes are suspect and that the ONLY Asil mares are to be found in the South? If this is the case would you consider Rodania and Queen of Sheba as non Asil?
    I think ALL books written by outsiders overthe last couple of hundred years are worth reading but equally none can be relied on too heavily there is simply far too much scope for misunderstanding bias and misinterpretation (Guarmani for example comes out with some patently nonsensical statements), I respect Lady Blunt above all as she was particularly intelligent perceptive and was a person of great integrity and what is more was ever ready to revise her views to correct any past misunderstandings which she herself made made.

  6. It will be interesting to see what Edouard says when he gets back to a computer…

  7. Lisa, there were many tribes in the North but the writers didn’t always meant the same tribes by the northern tribes. When Rezwuski was in Arabia, the Anazeh were still or around Nejdi but being pushed by the 2nd Saudi empire up north – the Shammar were still in Nejd as allies of Saud. When the Blunts travelled Arabia, the Anazeh had basically left Nejd and were in the north, don’t know about the Shammar and when Raswan was in Arabia the shammar were no longer allies of the Sauds either and also up north (although more Euphrates/Iraq than Syria if I’m not mistaken).

    If I recall well, Rezwuski described the breeders of “Koheilan” being northern tribes, Kurdes & semi-nomads and the bedu he travelled with in Nejd were Anazeh (or at least enemy of the Shammar which he described as sided with Saud)

    In most “Arab horse” literature consider the bedouin in Arabia as something “consistent” and most Arab horse people are confused because the 19th & early 20th century writers all have different stories but rarely people interested in the “history of the Arabian horse” bother reading the history of Arabia.

    Although historians suspect that the Blunts perhaps had a double agenda, their “journey into Nejd” was triggered by an earlier traveller, Palgrave, who described the incredible horses in Nejd. The Blunts were dissappointed and described the horses in Nejd as inferior to the Anazeh.

    However Palgrave had visited the stables of Saud deep in Nejd while as the Blunts only travelled to Hail visiting the stables of Ibn Raschid who was Sauds remaining opposition.

    For me there is no doubt whatsoever that the timeline of history of the Arabian horse is parrallel to that of the house of Saud.

    I don’t have read much how the phenomenal horse collection of the 1st Saudi State was gathered (the one Abbas Pasha got away with) but probably not much different than the one of the 2nd Saudi State.

    About the influence of the 2nd Saudi State and horsebreeding in Nejd, Rezwuski gives a lot of information on how Saud forced either the bedu with warmares to fight in his wars or used any excuses to confiscate good war mares from the bedu under his influence. Unless they moved out the influence of Saud, this made many bedu sell their priceless mares (to avoid confiscation or to avoid draft).

    Same happened with the creation of Saudi Arabia where Ibn Saud confiscated the warmares of his tribes to avoid them going on Ghazus (probably to avoid revolution against him) and described that hundreds of mares got killed by machine guns in his battles. Edouard described before how the Sauds pressured the bedu out of their good horses until well in the 1970ties and beyond Saudi borders.

    Haven’t been to Syria or Saudi-Arabia but I find the difference in type & nobility between today’s Saudi and Syrian horses in the pictures on this blog rather striking. The Syrian show only occassional exceptional nobility while as the Saudi … (remember pure mans pictures or the ones Matthias took in Nejd Stud)

    My point is only that there is plenty of litterature available that mention the bedu in the north breeding both the real thing as well as horses looking as pure but descending a few generations back from common mares and that the chances are real that not every horse coming out of the desert was in all lines a descendant of Rezwuskis fabulous Nejdi Koheilans – probably an explanation on how certain asil bloodlines have degenerated in nobility so fast.

    The Blunts knew what they were doing, I remember however in one of Raswan books how Western buyers got ripped-off and were departing with Kadish horses – he even pictured one imported to America (he named the farm that imported but don’t think he mentioned the name of the horse, if I recall well it was Marlborough or Mayesborough something farm)

    Just moved into my new office but my library is still in the attic so can’t look it up for you.

    As for Guarmani nonsensical statements – always read a book in the original language, if that’s not possible you have to realise you’re reading a translation and are depending of the ability of the translator to translate not only the words but the meaning & content. Reading Rezwuski in French is a delight, but the English translations are a disaster – at least the ones I have read. Guarmani I have read only in English – don’t know what the original language was (he was Italian but worked both for the French as Italian king so I assume his work was in French) but I speak French & understand rather well Italian so it was easy to see bad translation and read through it.

    Would love to have Guarmani in original language – I’m also very much interested in finding Luis Azpeitia de Moro’s book “En Busca del Caballo Arabe” in Spanish, ’cause I assume Steen’s translation of it was as bad as with Guarmani – don’t hesitate to contact me (arab@ven.be) if you know one for sale

  8. Hello Matthias

    A Difference that Makes No Difference is No Difference…Isn’t it???

    The question of the Purity of the Blood of the Arabian horse may well be as old as the Arabian breed itself. However, in our modern time we have two different approaches to this question: The scientific one and the one that is based on myths and beliefs.
    There are still two fractions: the ones who believe that an Arabian horse is only an Arabian if it traces back to desert-bred horses in all lies of its Pedigree and the others who admit that the Arabian horse, along with all the other horse breeds, is a man-made breed and therefore it is man who determines, which horse is a “pure-bred Arabian” by definition. That’s one reason why studbooks were founded.
    Today, most people agree that the studbooks and identification of horses should be kept to the best of standards available at the time including computerisation, blood typing, DNA analysis in case of doubt, etc. To avoid any problems today seems to be more important than dwelling in the past to come up with the so-called “problem horses” that have a flaw in their pedigree some 15 to 20 generations ago. Those who oppose these “problem horses” with origins in the middle of the last century, should try to find out without looking at the pedigree which are the ones: No matter wheter they take show results (beauty) or racing or endurance result (performance) as a cirterion, the won’t find a difference. But if these “foreign” genes, introduced about 150 years ago, make no difference in appearance and performance where is the difference, then? I am afraid the difference only exists in the heads of people.
    I’ invite you to think about the problems-and if you like, you may let me know what you think…
    Best wishes: Teymur…

  9. Teymur: The answer to the question of what will happen if we breed horses that have impurity in their pedigree 150 years ago is that given enough crosses the genetic cards inevitably will re-shuffle to produce visibily impure horses. A shagya breeder I know got a dish faced stallion from a sire and dam who both lacked a facial dish( though they both had good sized foreheads) The stallion in question also turned out to have very good hindquarters too,luckily. I’m not saying we should all go out and breed Shagyas- what I am saying is that given enough crosses and the somewhat random re-assembly and stringing of genes on the chromosomes if there are oddities and anomolies they will show up. If that were not so then Scientists would never have been able to ,’ backbreed,’ various breeds of European cattle to re-construct a bovine that remarkably resembles the extinct Aurochs. Now, it is known from the historical record that the bedouin had kadishes and kohaylans. But the historical record very clearly and emphatically states the preference for purebred, or as sometimes it was referred to the,’ right arabian breed’. To this end the first pedigrees were kept in the Arabian cradle countries. Just because they were kept orally does not make them anyless reliable. We do know that this practice of keeping pedigrees was a cultural practice taken with the arabs when they conquered Spain. It then was adopted by Christian Monks, for example the carthusians who were entrusted to breed spanish horses by King Ferdinand. This particular effort saw what was probably the first systematic reliable written pedigrees. Most likely the bedouin didn’t use written pedigrees( as opposed to a hujjah sp)because in their lives given a choice between carting around several hundred pounds worth of books- or several hundred pounds worth of water most would have chosen the water.
    Best wishes
    Bruce Peek

  10. One who listens only to one’s own self is of no need for conversation, written or spoken. Just listen, fifteen generations does not matter if type is at that moment fixed. Whose type is being forwarded? The Bedouin’s? The Bedouin Arabian horses had many types. Yes, DNA, says what is known, there are many types, and many mare lines. Michael has answered this many times over! Openly you say admixture is OK, OK to whom, besides you? Certainly not to a Bedouin Breeder, past or present! Certainly not to I! Registries have little in common to what was Bedouin Bred! To ask a registry to remove what is known, is at this point useless! That is why this blog is present. Trying to educate the unknowing, using the best resources possible. Constantly endorsing Al Khamsa and other sources World wide. To devalue Asil is pointless, or to say their is no difference is even more without merit.

    Those who wish to work with other sources other then what was once of the Bedouin, do so, but leave the Asil alone
    from admixture of out side blood. Enjoy this admixture,
    but realize that they do not realize what was once, a Bedouin’s horse.

    What Edouard asked, was, what do breeders of the in tacked past wish? Do we separate the new type show horses from the type that could with stand the desert life of the Bedouin?

    What now is being presented is not unlike the later discussion. Dilute something enough, and who cares of the
    original created idea. Well I do!

    Jackson / Bedouin Arabian Farms

  11. Jenny, Jackson, I am with you. This is a very long thread, with a lot of material added in the last couple of days, while Edouard and his family were here visiting. And some of this material I find to be in direct opposition to my reading and my experience. No matter how many grey hairs we have, we are all still students of this breed and the culture that created it, and the learning process never ends. I’m going to send Edouard a text and let him know that his garden here needs tending!

    We had a wonderful visit, although the weather was unpleasant and there is never enough time.

  12. bruce, How “Original” is an Original Arabian?

    For more than three millennia, the Arabian nomades have been engaged in horse breeding, achieving breeding progress with the help of natural selection based on the brutal climate and the correspondingly difficult conditions for nutrition: this was a forced selection of horses according to hardiness, stamina (= performance), orientation, “courage”, health, “good behaviour”, affection towards humans and the ability to make a lot out of little feed, and only animals who corresponded to these demands where used for further breeding. Depending on local conditions, mild and – more rarely – close inbreeding were used. Besides, there were Partbreds on the Arabian peninsula even during the lifetime of the prophet; under his successors, the Arabians had to conquer the horse – affluent Iran in the beginning of the 8th century in order to establish a numerous army of riders and to consolidate the Islamic jihad in the Arabian – Islamic jihad in the Arabian – Islamic Empire of the 9th century. The influence of foreign blood is also known to come about from captured breeding horses, from what conquerors left or from contacts to the numerous neighbouring peoples and tribes. For example, during the war – like skirmishes on the Nejd highlands in the beginning of the 19th century, thousands of Turkish horses as well as horses from Ethiopia, Sudan and Egypt arrived in the Nejd highlands and left their mark. There were, for example, 1,800 Turkish riders in 1811/1812 (they sold 200 horses in the Hedchas), 2,000 Egyptian riders in 1813 (400 of their horses were captured by the Wahabites), 2,100 Lybians riding Barbs and other horss in 1815/16. Another point to be noted should be the fact that there is an Arabian term “Kadish”, meaning a horse of unknown or non – asile origin – meaning, of course, that such a horses were known in Arabia. As early 1772, Niebuhr referred to that fact. During the last few centuries, loads of horses of other breeds have arrived in Southern Arabia and in the Hejas, and the stallions of the Turkish conquerors and particularly of the nobles had their turn in the 16th century, and of course they were not always “ox”. Often, captured or other non – asile horses were rather impressing in their performance – even if they were not Purebreds. This does not serve to change the fact their genetic influence was forcefully kept to a minimum: most of the horse-breeding Bedouins were convinced of the necessity to keep their animals’ blood pure, as the always bad to keep in mind performance and survival. The fact that they used to sew their asile mares’ vaginas shut with horsehair before setting out on a raid (in order to prevent unwanted covering) demonstrates how serious they took – and had to lake – this. In Nothern Arabia and in Yemen, people were not usually so careful, but then, the studs in Egypt and the Gulf states which are so important for the preservation of the original Arabians today would not usually recruit their horses from these regions. Egyptian rulers such as En – Nasir (gov. 1309 to 1340) and Barquq (gov. 1382/89 to 1390/98) would only resort to the use of stallions from Inner Arabia during the time of the Mamelukes in the 13th to the beginning of the 16th centuries and would then use them to produce riding horses as well as to build up big studs.
    Sincerely : Teymur

  13. Really rotten weather here the last few days. But gave me a little time on the computer today. 🙂

    I would like to point out that there is a difference between inbreeding with selection… and inbreeding without selection. 🙂 Size would be selection.. either direct or indirect

    And then there is the ofttimes repeated horseman’s cliche that (numbers wise) it’s easier to find/breed a good little horse than a good big horse.

    And last of all, is the 13-hand Mustang mare “Mercedes” winner of the 2011 Supreme Mustang Makeover (Legends division)”.

    https://www.blm.gov/adoptahorse/news.php?news_id=41

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ylju0TqiE6o

    AnitaW

  14. Dear Teymur, To answer your question- Asil Arabians are thee most original of any- any breed of horse in existence. That is so because they are thee only breed that only descends from only one of the four ancient subspecies of horse that predated domestication. Asils only come from the ancient Afro Turkik subspecies. Akhal Tekes for example are a blend of afro Turkik and Tarpan. Yes some of them may predate Asils- because on the edges of the two ancient subspecies territory- the geographic area where Afroturkik horses and tarpans intermingled, there would have been some genetic mixing. But we know from the genetic research that Micheal Bowling has done that many of the genetic traits found in todays Asils are thought to have been present BEFORE domestication. Key point. Since that is most likely true. The Bedouin asertion that they and their anscestors have always bred Asil horses gains renewed credibility. How else could genetic evidence that is 9000 years old- post last ice age- have been preserved except by avoiding outcrossing?
    I reccomend looking at dr. Deb Bennets Equine Studies Institute web site. Click on her sites knowledge base. And then click the history of three breeds. She better explains the afro turkik subspecies business better than I. And she clearly represents that Arabians are the only horse that is not a blend of the other subspecies. She also had at one time very good things to say about some Jordanian Asils that were incredibly athletic and that were imported but refused registration.
    Best wishes
    Bruce Peek

  15. My understanding is that the word “kadish” means a horse of unknown origin. The root of the word means “cut” and thus a “kadish” is a horse that has been cut off from its history. A similar concept in the modern western world would be a horse that was sold without papers and its identity lost. The word “kadish” does not necessarily mean a horse of another breed, because if a previously asil Bedouin mare was taken in war and her owner killed and her identity not known, she would be “kadish” to the new owner. My point is that the western concepts of purebred and partbred do not correspond exactly with asil and kadish. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

  16. Hi Patrick,
    I did not mean that the statements did not make sense linguistically but as statements of fact.
    A simple example; his comments regarding horse colour are nonsense in terms of biology and colour genetics. I am not as fluent as you but do speak French and a little Italian, I don’t feel personally that it is a matter of mistranslation.
    His statements regarding strains are also at odds with what I have been convinced of as being the truth by Lady Blunt’s later writings and information given by Edouard , Hazaim and others.
    Will certainly contact you if I stumble across the Spanish book.
    Cheers
    🙂
    Lisa

  17. You may have a point. I guess I would like to know what you see as the biggest difference. Are they merely physiological? Also, is there an actual genetic difference? If what you would call “post-Arabians” can still produce what would look like an “original Arabian,” I don’t think there would be any basis for separation in that case.

  18. dear Anita: Hats off to the folks who came up with the mustang makeover. Taking horses with little market value and making them into safe, athletic rides. Eat your hearts out USDF! See absolute size and height doesn’t matter as much as heart and try. That mare can really tuck her fanny and collect! Arabians could do the same if the ,”show system,” weren’t warped beyond all usefullness!
    Keely Arabian- Well to my eyes many of the post arabian breeding programs, using non asils are allready producing anomolies. For example a certain ranch here in the U.S. that produces predominantly endurance horses is starting to get horses with ,’ragged,’ couplings. Now their horses have been dominating endurance for decades now- but they reportedly started outcrossing to Polish horses 20 or more years ago. Now they are getting more flat necked, longer coupled horses. See the Polish breeding program was essentially based on reconstructed partbreds- hence the need for the Kuhaylan Haifi- Kuhaylan Zaid importation carried out with carl Raswans help. Then the Poles instituted and devloped their track racing program, which selected for short to middle distance racing conformation of a lower set neck, and a slightly more open coupling. So nowadays if you look carefully you can see a conformational departure from body type like the cravers bred to a more flat racing type body type.
    Best wishes
    Bruce Peek

  19. Why accept the Asil Club, only the SE and Bahrain and Saudi Arabian horses lines?
    No Tunisians, Iranians, Iraqis.
    Of the Arabian horses from Turkey, no notice was taken.

    What kind of a strategy in this club?
    Is it just for the marketing answered: Asil?
    Feared competition from the other lines?

  20. Hello Teymur,
    the Asil Club had accepted horses from Tunisia, Iran and other countries in the past, as you can see in the first Asil Books. If someone has a horse from those countries and can proof that all of their lines go back to the horses of the bedouins of Arabia, his horse will be accepted.

    To answer Your first question: I do not distinguish between a scientific and a mythological approach to Arabian horses, but between science on one side and cultur on the other. Scientificly we cannot distinguish between ASIL and NON ASIL horses. Scientifcly You are right and there seems no difference between both. And still there is a difference, maybe for anyone, but to me and many other breeders. Maybe I am wrong. I prefer the ASIL horse to the non asil and still admire good Arabian horses of any breeding group. That is my personal decision based on what I have read and observed since youth. I respect different views like Yours.

    I would also like to say some words to Patrick. Rzewuski has left us a rather uncomplete report of his travells in Arabia. At his time a large part of the Shammar has been in the north for some years already, but they had been defeated by the Pasha of Bagdad and his alies and were without influence for a couple of years in Iraq. As I understand Rzewuski the Nejdi Koheilan and the Koheilan (Shimali) were both asil, the first maybe superior and higher regarded to the second. The Aneze horses the Blunts later saw and aquired in the north were Nejdi Koheilans of Rzewuski´s definition although they were born in the north. The Shimali were with the old tribes of the north that had sometimes settled or became semi nomads. And we should not forget: there has always been interchange between the north and Nejd, in the time of Rzewuski and before and also later until the times of Ibn Saud in the 1950s and later. I cannot see a difference between modern Syrian and Saudi horses today, both have horses of different quality, but Saudi breeders have more money and therefore we see their horses in a far better condition. That may be the reason for a difference.
    Matthias

  21. Hello Matthias,

    Don’t know about the Shammar at the time of Rzewuski, only that he described being attacked by the Shammar. Probably was not a correct statement that they were allies of Saud as they were conquerred by the Sauds early 1800 and of course during the conquest of Ibn Saud.

    As for the interchange, the tribes moved more around that we realise. I believe the Shammar reconquered Nejd around 1880-1890? Wasn’t the Ibn Raschid that the Blunts visited in Hail not a shammar as well? If I recall well the shammar dispersed from the Shammar mountains after being defeated by Saud early 1830’s as far as Euphrate, Iraq & part of today’s Syria while the Anazeh roamed more in Syria and on todays border region of Saudi Arabia but they all got regularly hired again by either Saud or an adversary of Saud.

    The bedu would probably know very well and keep trace of the Nejdi Koheilans, probably the reason why the Sauds went after mares beyond their borders

    I can’t verify at this moment ’cause my books are on the attic, but I’m pretty sure Rzewuski made a clear distinction between Nejdi Koheilan and Koheilan, the latter not tracing entirely to Nejdi Koheilans and requiring Nejdi Koheilans to regenerate.

    Better condition of the Saudi horses could indeed be an explanation why they look in general much more noble than the Syrian’s, although the leading syrian breeders seem to feed good as well. I haven’t visited them so can only judge on pictures & videos which is hard to tell of course. Considering the famine and other troubles of the tribes up north, it could be that the saudis got away with the best nevertheless?

  22. My point is not only that it has been well documented that the bedu also bred Arabians “Polish-style” and probably not every Arabian tracing to the desert was originally of purest origines, especially those that were not bought directly from the bedu.

    Together with climate this might be another good argument why regeneration (retrempement) with the purest stallions is required. This idea is not an invention of Mauvy but was discribed already in the 18th century (don’t know who was first, Rzewuski or Guarmani)

    Besides climate this might be another reason why certain preservation groups’horses seem to degenerate to something far from their noble ancestors (as far as they were noble in the first place).

    On the other hand, some groups seems to hold on very well – such as the Davenports but they went to great efforts I believe to get the real thing and in many parts of the USA there is of course a climate comparable or close to that of the Middle-East and Maghreb.

    My other point, already mentioned in a few other topics, is that preservationist breeders shouldn’t be surprised that Waho purebreds market better. It is not because they’re asil, they can be inferior than purebreds, the general market of competition riders, leisure riders and leisure breeders don’t really care. Most are interested in the “versatile Arabian” combining wonderful temperament, beauty and performance ability. Especially in Europe there comes the factor size along with it. People are in general a bit taller here and horses below 1m50 / 15 hands will market harder.

  23. I agree with you patrick…
    Unfortunately I can not post pictures.
    So you can see the differences between the horses.
    There was no single type at the Arab thoroughbred.
    What is a typical Arab type of horse?
    All possible!
    Similarly, the first imports of the Blunts … many were bought by Turks.
    Also interesting, why have these imports, no Hujjah?

  24. Wow, I left for 6 days and in the meantime 75 reactions on this thread..

    Many good points from all sides, including a lot of things from Patrick and Teymur that I happen to agree on, and some things that are more open to discussion. I will make a few comments on my own on a new topic/thread.

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