Post-Arabians
I am now more and more convinced that the Arabian horse of the show type has veered away from the original Arabian horse so much that it now forms a distinct breed.
There is hardly anything in common anymore between the kind of horse featured on this blog and the ‘living art’ featured in halter shows (whether it is asil or not asil, pedigree-wise). We are now at a stage whether different names should be used to designate two different breeds of horses.
I suggest the term “Post-Arabian” for the show type.
I *LOVE* this suggestion.
We should not make the mistake to forget to distinguish between the horse itself and the way it is handled. If You go to the major shows and see the horses relaxed in the boxes You will still see a typical Arabian horse! There are some, but in my opinion rare exceptions, of horses that are no more typical Arabian.
Also we should never forget that also in the past we never had a single type of Bedouin bred Arabian but many!
Looking forward to a controversial discussion
Matthias
No need to take/make exception to the Asil, show or other wise.
Al Khamsa horses are the exception to the non Asil. To say an Asil is not suppose to show various types is to limit all breeding’s. Show horses are not what I want, perhaps, not what most want in Al Khamsa. Today, what I want is certainly an even balance horse that is trainable and filled with kindness. A horse fit for a Bedouin of years past. No one today can become the Bedouin of what once was, much less would want to.
Some may say so, maybe even believe so, the horses and the Bedouin survived their time. Just as we try to survive ‘our’s.
Find joy in what others do, perhaps they too will find joy in what we do.
I say no to separation! jmh
I agree with Matthias, I have already seen pictures on this blog of asil Arabians that could easily participate to shows.
With Arabian horses in general, regardless if they are asil or not, only a very small percentages participates to shows. Over 95% of the population never sees the showring and are ridden, for sport or for leisure.
On the other hand the people that are only running around with Arabian horses on a leach are likely to breed with horses like this http://felinosblancos.pagesperso-orange.fr/iberic/armani_fichiers/id32_m_fichiers/d8c842b0.jpg and are probably more likely to breed Post-Arabians
If that photo has not been altered, Patrick, then the poor thing has entered into the realm of caricature.
Trouble is, the 5% who are going to the shows and getting the visibility in the magazines are shaping the image of the whole Arabian breed, and are implicitly or explicitly saying that there is an ‘ideal’ and that others falling short of it.
I said post-Arabian, because the breeders of this kind of horse think it is actually an improvement over the original type(s).
Of course, I feel the original types need to be preserved, not improved.
My Favourite Mu’niqi Type…
Pure Turkish Asil-Arabian.
https://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/photo.php?fbid=206282139450253&set=o.243084792383606&type=3&theater
Patrick: ,’the people running around with arabians on a leash are likely to breed with horses like this,’..Yeah but you can’t really tell because of the way the poor thing is posed, and the way the shot is angled. To do what? Hide the fact that he has a short and weak hip? if you look closely at his left front fetlock it appears offset.. But thats also probably the result of standing him on a pile of gravel too. See the thing is, this modern post- upper midwest brothers who specialised in halter horse showing style, was specifically invented to hide conformational flaws, usually in the hindquarters. And of course there is his head which looks as if it were surgically altered. If the show system halter horse showers were not afraid of knowledgeable horse people being able to easily discern their horses dysfunctional flaws than why do they make it impossible to truly evaluate the horses conformation? Let me take a guess at this horses breeding- Crabbet and New Eygyption? Teymur that link you provided of the Asil Turkish horse shows an honest to God horse, short back, wonderful layback of shoulder, good bone, nice set neck. The only thing i disagree with is the text repeating the stuff about raswans claim that Muniqu horses descend from Turcomans. But no big deal. We do know the stallion in question is Asil.
Best wishes
Bruce Peek
I worked one summer (long, long ago) at a “show arabian” farm that had a big name horse, way too many people would come in and ooh and ahh at his pretty, fairy tale head, and his big eyes. Sometimes the only question they would ask about his siring ability would be if his get inherited those big eyes! But he had a bunch of ribbons, and his babies were winning, and in those days you could write it all off in taxes. I, for one, am glad that the big money has been taken out of horse breeding.
Unfortunately, other big money, oil money from the middle east this time, has taken over.
@Teymur, what an interesting Facebook page – somebody should really start to map the Turkish breeding programs for the outside world!
malheureusement,nous voyons dans les magasines les 5% d’arabes asils ou non faisant du show.Pour la plupart des personnes,c’est le prototype du cheval arabe.La plupart des étalons en fonction ont des origines show récentes et pourtant une très grande majorité font de piètres chevaux de selle.
Il est sélectionné sur la tete,l’encolure et les allures relevées suivant la mode du moment.Comme la plupart de nos concitoyens ne sont pas cavaliers ou si peu,ils ne voient pas les mauvais dos,tissus, aplombs et diverses autres fragilités…etc.Il ne peut plus porter lourd,vite et loin et n’a plus de solidité ni de rusticité.
C’est autre chose,c’est de moins en moins un cheval pour travailler sous la selle.
Je suis contre aussi contre une spécialisation à outrance dans une discipline sportive,principalement pour le cheval asil car il doit garder une polyvalence,bien sur, etre utilisé pour la selle pour vérifier son aptitude si possible dans diverses disciplines sans le spécialiser d’une génération à l’autre.
L’arabe est la graine de toutes les disciplines.
Certains se demandent s’il n’est pas en train de perdre son r^ole d’améliorateur universel et beaucoup
ont déja oublié son role récent dans les origines de beaucoup de poneys de sport et bien su^r dans la formation du cheval d’endurance comme autrefois dans les autres races.
Nous en aurons encore besoin et peut ^etre plus vite qu’on croit pour corriger les dérives et la chute du niveau moyen du cheval de selle de nos pays
Je vais traduire ce texte, Fabienne, qui est tres precieux..
Teymur, I really like that photo of the Turkish horse. Can you provide Edouard with some background on his pedigree?
Teymur, This horse is exeptionnally well built
Wonderfull!
This is the real arabian!!!!!!!
@Edouard: what do you expect if preservationist breeders “ooh” and “ahh” over a certain horse without type, just ’cause he’s coming from an esteemed marbat. Focus on the asil horses with type – they exist plenty and don’t have to be of “show type”, see that they get published and focus on their authentic origine and the “type” features besides an extreme dished head. Stop focussing on “common” asils just because they have an authentic pedigree and pick-out those worth representing the breed for their type (not necessarily showtype) and abilities. If they look like mongrols instead of an Arabian they’re not worth mentioning, even if they trace to a royal marbat. As always only 5% of animals in a breed will be exceptional 20% good and 75% is mediocre to mongrol, regardles if they run around in the desert or with us. A super war or endurance horse does not necessarily mean breeding stock. In regards to the certain horse we discussed before with his royal marbat – there were plenty of support comments on how nice a horse he would be to ride etc but that was besides the discussion, question was would you BREED your mare to him.
@Patrick: how do you define “type” and from where did you get this definition?
If may participate in this interesting discussion .. I think the show horses are not a distinct breed nor an improvement over the typical desert horses. They represent a concentration of some of the typical desirable traits of the Arabian horse that were always valued by the Bedouin breeders. But the problem is that some other important values and characteristics have been lost or weekend in the process. Bedouin horses always included horses of strong type, may be 5% as Patrick said (probably Abbas Pasha got the whole 5% for himself :] ). The problem is that most of the demand in the West goes to type and show only. We need to alter this demand that runs after extreme dished horses in favor of more “balanced” horses. Preservationists need to push hard to improve the criteria of judging the show horses to include other important aspects. New criteria related to horse muscular structure and horse size should be introduced and lower score should be given to the extreme dished head. This will make breeders search for new blood to improve their horses’ size and structure. Horses have to be ridden and show courage and obedience. Horses were created for riding not for leashing. The big moneys need to go to new types of competitions that look to the overall horse achievements including endurance and race in addition to type. In the past RAS used to get its new blood from the race. That is how many Tahawi horses entered the EAO and that is why the older generations of EAO horses were legendary.
Yasser is right! Maybe there should be a requirement that before a horse is granted a breeding permit the stallion or mare in question must complete a certain amount of performance events with publicly posted scores by carded judges above X percent. Also the horses’ body dimensions must be posted too. Say cannon bones with circumference above a certain percent of body weight. Taller than 15 hands, hip length at least one third the body length and a neck set higher than half way up the shoulder, and mitbah structured so that the horse is not hammer headed. For those who think this a too intrusive and dictatorial an approach I reply that what we are talking about here is no less than the saving of a breed.. One visit to a rendering/ slaughter house with arabians being turned into pet food should be enough to convince anyone that the over population problem has been caused by idiotic breeders going for nuerotic unsafe horses that you have to be Buck Brannaman to train. These same breeders commonly lament that there is no market for these same show system weeds. Well gosh i wonder why.
The warm blood breeders and quarter horse breeders to a lesser extent suffer less from the market flucuations than arab breeders because they breed a sound horse that regular people can ride without fear of getting hurt.
We know what works within the confines of the Asil gene pool. For an example look at the horses bred and used by Albert W Harris. Pretty much all asil, substantial confirmation, and most importantly DOING horses.
Best wishes
Bruce Peek
Bien dit Fabienne!
‘Il doit garder une polyvalence’
This is the root, I believe of the problem, for me a good Arab is the zenith of the species Equus Caballus, absolutely peerless, and his development one of the finest accomplishments of the species Homo Sapiens for that matter!
However it is almost his very versatility, his so very MANY fine qualities that make it challenging to preserve them all in full measure.
Other breeds are much simpler,tb sprinters for example… no problem … breed for speed Full Stop (or period as you say in America!)
(Ok I am only too well aware that it is not THAT simple and am aware of the many problems in the thoroughbred breed.. poor feet, fertility etc)
However in simple terms a sprinter must be fast.
But the Arab……not just a ‘jack of all trades’ but a master of many…..
The breed was as we know forged in one of the harshest environments in which a horse can live. The Bedouin lifestyle of the last few thousand years DEMANDED a ‘polyvalence’…. if the horse was weak, a poor doer, unsound etc she would die; if she was slow, clumsy, lacked courage or loyal obedience (though in Arabs obedience is the wrong word… willing cooperation is better)in battle, she could die and so might well her rider; if she did not have bottomless endurance she would not necessarily reach safety after a raid, she may be taken and sold to the towns;if she was vile tempered she could not have lived in camps with children playing around her feet….
So, the Bedouin have bequeathed to the world a loyal, agile,enduring, sound, tough, intelligent, high couraged yet gentle horse shaped by millenia in a uniquely demanding environment. Add to this the pleasing form of a supremely functional athlete and the results of the natural eye for beauty that is a feature of Arab peoples and it is no wonder that this horse is considered a gift of God.
Yet what have we done to this breed!!!!!!!!!!
More importantly what CAN we do now to preserve this essential ‘polyvalence’, this allround supremacy?
Showing clearly falls pitifully short… a few physical charateristics of ever increasing extremity are selected for, assesment of movement is limited to the trot; the sublime canter, a hallmark of the breed is not even judged.
Endurance competition I believe is the best we have … it tests physical soundness, endurance, courage and generosity (another hallmark of the breed in my view), yet this discipline alone is still too limited ; some features of Arab physical type may be lost, it also doesn’t strongly select for the incredible handiness and agilty of the Arab in the way that battle would have.
Racing over short distances is far too specialised and will only result in the reinvention of the tb, (disregarding for now the actual tb blood in racing Arabs).
Pedigree, though sacrosanct, will not alone protect the breed, as has been said, it is perfectly possible to breed poor quality and widely diverging types of horse even from the most pristine and noble blood, given enough time and the wrong selection pressures.
So what is the answer??
I don’t know but I do feel very strongly that at least all breeding stock (barring accidental injury) should be properly tested and proven under saddle and not to do so is a betrayal of the heritage of these horses. This alone is not enough I know, I just don’t know what else to say.
Essentially I reluctantly agree with Edouard, he is right, though I wish it were not so, ridiculous handling and presentation in the showring aside there are now show Arabs being bred who would not last 3 days as a Bedouin mount and thus are not fit to bear the name Arabian.
((Having said that I know that you all believe that my own horses are unfit to bear the name thanks to Skowronek!!! ) and I respect your view.)
BTW I haven’t logged onto this blog for ages… incredibly busy breeding season this year at work and all free time spent on my gift of God Arab horse!
It is nice to have a little time to dip in again, I have tried not to as I get ‘sucked in’ and whole nights can disappear!! It’s always a pleasure however to read so many pertient and articulate comments.
Edouard,Jean is your book out yet?
BTW Have you seen the new book by Lesley Skipper…’Understanding the Arabian Horse’? I have just bought it yesterday , not read yet just flicked through..probably nothing that you won’t have read but looks absolutely excelllent and at least gets some of Lady Blunt’s last unpublished work into current print. Lesley is an intelligent and articulate horsewoman and passionate defender of the Arab breed. I have yet to read if she makes any comments wrt Asil breeding, but if you can accept that she has a ‘non asil’ perspective she has written a lot that is worth reading over the years.
Dear Bruce,
As usual I agree with you wholeheartedy, with the exception of your point re height… some of the best Arabs that I have ever known have been under 15hh.
My husband’s advanced, race winning endurance mare, who has also been placed at national level in le Trec and carried my husband (5’11” medium build) from Wales to Jordan is a little under 15hh and the courageous, generous, loyal, tough Crabbet/Davenport gelding (and love of my life) that I rode on the same trip was just under 14.3.
I fully agree that there is more of a market for larger horses and this must be a consideration but how many superlative horses over the years have been around 14.2?? It would have done the breed no favours to exclude them from the genepool.
Cheers
Lisa
The Arabian horse was never consistent in the type.
This must never be forgotten.
I’ve seen pictures of Arabian horses from the last century, very much reminiscent of today’s show horses.
I will send pictures with Pedigree’s of the Turkish Pure Arabian horses to Edouard.
I’ve written a small book about the Arabian horse breeding in Turkey, but not published.
Unfortunately there is no interest, no publisher wanted to buy the manuscript.
I agree Teymur, the refined dished head is and always has been a feature of some Arab horses,there are certainly paintings and descriptions of Arabs going back over the centuries of horses of fine ‘classic’ type with dished heads. As a matter of fact I think a good dished head is very beautiful, though no MORE beautiful than a lovely tapered head with a deep jowl wide forehead and straight profile. However I have never seen a painting or old photo that comes close to the extremes that we see in show horses today…maybe your photo will prove me wrong!!
I am not someone who would think badly of the most ‘fairytale’ beautiful head on a horse PROVIDING that the dish was not so extreme as to cause respiratory compromise and providing the head is attached to a balanced athletic and functional riding horse, in which case it would be the icing on the cake.
For example my current 15.2hh, Crabbet endurance horse has a distinctly dished head and has won endurance races this summer, I could not dream of a better riding horse, recently a Portuguese dressage trainer who rides at the highest level said ‘this is the best Arab I have ever seen in my life’; from his tail carriage, head and beautiful movement there can be no doubt of of his Arab blood… even so I think that he would look out of place in the modern inhand show ring, (though he won in Crabbet classes as a youngster). I think he is too substantial… too much of a riding horse for the inhand ring… what a ridiculous situation! ( not that I care btw as I always liken in hand showing to owning a Rolls Royce but only ever towing it around rather than driving it!)
What the problem is, I believe, is that showing is selecting for such a narrow range of criteria, which are becoming ever more extreme. I think all the evidence is that the Arab HAS changed, markedly and not for the better as a riding horse (which to my mind is the whole point of the breed) in the last few decades.
Teymur,I am sure that many of us would love to read your book, can you get it ‘published’ on line ??
I certainly hope it never comes to the point within the US that a breeding permit is required! Unless it is a timed performance event, all shows still comes down to someone else’s opinion of what the horse should be.
I certainly agree with this comment! <> There are a great many types within the Asil Arab! Just as there are within all horse breeds. Some of the greatest athletic horses, who went on to produce more great athletic (sound) horses… did not fall into many’s ideas of “conformationally correct”.
We always felt that the goal of our breeding program was to maintain the type of horse the Bedouins bred around the turn of the last century, when the ancestors of our horses left the desert. They were the ones who created the breed that we loved. If we can get some “icing” on our cake, we enjoy that, but the cake itself is the important part! So we look at the photos of what the Bedouins had, and formed our ideals from that, not from a painting done by a Westerner, or a show ring.
Therefore, the first and most important thing to us has always been balance—the same kind of balance you can see in a creature that nature made to fit its environment. Balance makes the wheel go around, makes the athlete, makes the sound and enduring machine that the Bedouin horse is.
Quite agree with all you say Jean, I hope it goes without saying that the cake is more important than the icing, or frosting if that’s the American term?!
ps Is your book out yet?
Majestic Lineage, As a vet who has been involved in grading committees for various breed societies I understand your wariness but I am afraid that I firmly believe that all breeding stock should be ridden an properly proven under sadle.
How Edouard can one improve on what was the Bedouin’s Arabian Horse? Asil remains, and that is enough! Like looking for the perfect Sunset, endless possibilities. And change is limited to time, thank goodness! Later the types we like will be what is.
Hope your Thanksgiving was with sharing a sunset with Charles?
Jackson
Jeanne, sorry I have been spelling your name wrongly!
I just keep going back to the photo below of Lydian to drool, just love him and he’s got all the ‘icing’ I’d ever want!!
I am HORRIBLE on conformation. I just want to see a balanced horse. It has never failed me.
Lisa: The Arabs incredible handiness and agility can be tested in combined training. The fences don’t have to be terrifyingly high- the ditches and moats don’t have to be yards across. Banks, water jumps, side-hills, short trappy turns, this kind of stuff would really test a horse. Coupled with a dressage test you could really get an accurate picture of a horses athletic ability, if you used a combination of events.
Best wishes
Bruce Peek
You’re right Bruce, the PTV part of part of le Trec… jumping, ditches, banks, reining back and canter corridors and s bends, maypoles etc… another discpline that tests this is Portuguese working equitation… have you seen it?
We were lucky enough to visit the national fair and have some lessons in Portugal a few years ago… amazing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J75hWF4MiI
Magestic Lineage
I agree, balance is the essence, but limb conformation is not a matter of taste but of simple biomechanics… in our clinic we often bet what a lame horse’s problem will be from his conformation before we do the diagnostic nerve blocks etc… we are often right.
A horse whose limbs are not correct WILL given enough work and time pay the consequences; of course there are examples of horses with limb faults that have competed successfully in all disciplines but in the properly testing disciplines a horse with biomechanical faults is unlikely to have a long trouble free career. The basic requirements for sound limb conformation are very simple, one aspect for example is that from in front a line drawn down the centre of the forearm should bisect all the joints and bones below and of course the hoof, this is simply so the that the stresses are evenly distributed over the joint surfaces the joints move smoothly in one plane and the hoof lands flat, if this is not the case problems such as crushing and wear of articular cartilage, collateral ligament strain and abnormal forces on the hoof capsule are certain to result, whether the horse is worked hard enough for these to manifest as a clinical problem is another matter.
I know that this is a simple and obvious example but it seems to be one that international in hand Arab judges are oblivious to.
Cheers
Lisa
I should really have connected to a clip that shows the speed test which is similar but involves galloping while carrying the Garotcha (long pole) and picking hoops off poles etc
Below is Spanish rather than Portuguese, a HispanoArabe stallion. (50% Arab) The attributes of the Arabs and Iberians were developed in different arenas ; Bedouin warfare and the bullring, in many ways the breeds are very different but in both cases the rider’s life depends on the agilty and cooperation of his horse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhuip8kyBTU
I personally would like to see more freedom of the head but still, he never touches the reins with his hands.
Arabs love these sort of games!
I am way, way off thread now so will appologise and shut up…. sorry!
Lisa
Garrocha is Spanish – the Doma Vaquero (cowboy dressage) is very popular in Andalucia. There are more fun exercises in the Doma Vaquero (although obviously very good excercise I find it rather boring)
Do a search on “rejoneo” instead – for me it is the ultimate horsemanship and the place were you can imagine how horse soldiers must have fought really – at least until the start of the great cavalery charges (& massacres) under Napoleon. Many horses are PRE (Andalucians) but as many are Arab crosses (it is quite funny that in Andalucia both the breeders of the PRE as the Arab prefer Arab-PRE or Hispano-Arabs for leisure riding)
Not wanting to start a discussion on bullfighting (bullfighting on foot is disgusting because of the picadors).
In rejeoneo it is considered a shame for the rider if the bull manages to touch the horse, accidents are are but however unavoidable. These horses are trained for years and the good ones are priceless.
I know there is a bloodless copy of rejoneo in Portugal and there is an Arabian breeder in California into it as well – showing it is perfect sport for Arabians – well it should be as rejeoneo was invented by the Moors and copied by the Christian knights after the reconcista
Video of Merlin in training http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37boaOzPl6Y
Merlin in action http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6dEjX-7hds
One last just to justify my comment about the horse’s enjoyment of his job, the same stallion (half Arab) with his playmate !
(For the record, I don’t like severe bits,myself I school in a happy mouth Pelham,2 reins and elastic curb, ride out and compete endurance bitless and would never ever support a bullfight! )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzfFyPNQL_U
@Lisa: I love the way you described the Arabian horse and how it developed.
As a Tahawi I had the chance to experience the desert life and see some of the best and toughest desert horses; there is nothing we can do that can be equal to the Bedouin life that shaped the Arabian horse over ages. But this does not mean we cannot hope for better methods to save this unique breed. As Bruce said, more diversified competitions can be invented. I think of something like long seasons where horses can collect points from different competitions over a year or more that include race, endurance, jumping…etc. Then qualified horses enter a grand show at the end of the year where qualified horses (really tough and balanced horses) compete for type. I can imagine how this show will look like. Some real “monsters” are entering the arena with their strong muscles, arrogant moves, carried tails, fairly good heads, glowing eyes and balzing souls.
Shows must always come at the end to put the icing on the cake as Jeanne said. What an amazing cake it will be!
The key to Arabian diversity is in the body of the horses. People these days are looking at the Arabian and always ask or state where it is wrong – where are the faults. This is a nonsense. Everyone agrees, no horse (even Arabians) are perfect. There were no perfect horses in the beginning; breeding the perfect horse is a myth!
If the Arabian was reviewed as though each one were its own, then the trend might be what are the good points of this horse as well as the not so good points (perhaps).
The horse, in particular the Arabian, can be learnt from. I’m sure the nomadic Bedouin did ~ they just bred good horses (“faults” and all). Many just don’t want to learn and it starts at the top! It’s a Bakewellism thing. There’s nothing in any publication about the Arabian Horse as individuals or a Breed which adequately describes the physical differences between the types in an anatomical way that can be understood.
Everyone feels safe with what they know and they are too apprehensive to let go of this “safety”.
Je suis d’accord sur tous les points avec lisa et yasser ghanim et également avec la grande nécessité de juger le corps,les jambes,les aplombs du cheval arabe avec des coefficients beaucoup plus importants,ce qui permettraient également une bien meilleure qualité sous la selle.il va sans dire qu’un cheval arabe doit ressembler à un cheval arabe et il n’y a pas que la te^te loin s’en faut et aujourd’hui cette fameuse tête dans les shows empe^che l’effort.c’est simplement une création de l’occident pour admirer les poupées qui vivent entre le boxe et le paddock.
par contre,j’estime que le cheval arabe doit garder une certaine rusticité et il est trés facile de le faire grandir de 3 à 4 pouces en une génération (paturages très riches,oligo éléments et floconnés et vie facile à l’abri des intempéries(chaleur,vent,
neige et pluie dans nos contrées).
Dans le désert,il y a des périodes fastes et des périodes dures (chaleur et sécheresse).le cheval arabe y a acquis sa rusticité et son courage devant l’adversité et la plupart des importés toisaient 14 mains à 14 mains 2 pouces.il y a eu quelques importés au dessus de 15 mains mais ils n’ont pas laissé de souvenirs impérissables.il y a de nombreux chevaux arabes asils ou non qui ont d’exellents résultats sur 130 et 160km qui font 14 mains et 2 pouces. c’est le cas du dernier champion du monde et d’europe.D’autres ont bien réussi en concours de sauts d’obstacles.
Je sais que les chevaux arabes de plus de 15 mains deux pouces,c’est vendeur et qu’il existe de plus en plus des chevaux arabes de 15 mains et 3 pouces à 16 mains et 2 pouces ,mais ne fabrique t’on pas le frère de lait au mieux d’un anglo arabe ou me^me de nos chevaux de sport tels que les selles français,
holsteiner et autres qui sont d’anciens carrossiers améliorés pour la selle avec du ps,de l’anglo arabe en majorité. je ne pense pas que ce type d’arabe apporte quelque chose à la race et je dirai bien au contraire.Le terroir et notre façon d’élever ont pris le dessus et c’était déjà un problème au XIXè siècle qui avait été soulevé.l’arabe était devenu un cheval français au bout de 2 générations d’élevage et n’apportait plus rien dans l’amélioration des autres races.Je pense que tout éleveur doit freiner cette évolution et pas l’accompagner et aggraver cet état de fait.
j’ai oublié le froid sec qui existe aussi dans le berceau de race
@Fabienne
Je crois que la taille du PSA est liée principalement à son nouriture, sans doute aussi pour une partie sa conformation. Les asils en par example Arabie-Saoudite ou Bahrein aujourd’hui ne sont pas si petite comparé avec ceux en Syrie – mais sans doute très bien nourri dés leur naissance.
J’ai parlé longtemps avec Mme Bergman (qui eleve des asils en Tunesie ou bord du désert) et elle me confirmait que ces chevaux était de plus grand taille (+150 cm) que actuelement à cause de manque de fourage (moyens financiers).
Par contre il y a un autre danger important – celle du embryo transfer. Theoretiquement la jument porteuse n’influence pas le poulain – d’un des market leaders en Belgique (Hof ter Leeuwe) je sais qu’ils doivent utiliser des juments trotteur ou warmblood de max 160 cm si non les poulains “PSA” sont de taille excessive.
Aujourd’hui il y a déjà des eleveurs qui elevent des PSA en masse via embryo transfer – je connais un a elevé plus que 300 poulains via embryo transfer en 4 ans de temps. Il m’a frappé que très peux savent trotter comme des PSA, ils trottent plus comme leur mères porteuses.
Et il n’est pas seule, partout dans le monde il y a des eleveurs qui elevent en masse des PSA via embryotransfer en juments warmblood, trotteur ou quarter. En Moyen-Orient je sais que Al Rayyan le fait – ils sont même commencé avec des juments bedouins (pas chères) pour preserver les charactéristiques PSA mais c’était trop difficile comparé avec des warmblood ou trotteurs
I think horse size is not only about food. Horses are like humans have different sizes. But if a small group of humans do not get any new blood for several generations the result will be shorter people than their ancestors. I have seen EAO horses over thirty years and I can say (without having accurate measures) that EAO horses today are smaller in size compared to the past. This must be due to excessive inner breeding and lack of new blood. Lack of enough physical activities as with “boxed” horses might also have an impact over multiple generations.
Of course it is not only about food. Some lines will always be bigger than others. Although the Arabian horse is supposed to be inbreeding resistant, I have noticed on a few occassion that breeding programs deploying exceptional inbreeding, the size of the horses becomes significantly smaller (f.i. the Nagel horses of the 1st generation out of El-Zahraa imports were much bigger than the little ponies he’s breeding now – they probably get the same food, only difference is that what he’s breeding now has 15times Hanan in the first 4 generations).
Something I read here often is that the type of the bedouin horse around the century has to be preserved … I’m pretty certain that that type of bedouin horse was already different than the Nejdi Koheilan as described by Guarmani or Rsezuwski. Perhaps the Nejdi Koheilan was already almost extinct “in the wild” by the time the Blunts, Raswan & Davenport were with the Anazeh and lost to the stables of Saud and Abbas Pasha.
Also what was the influence of the horse buyers? Was the same type fashionable in the Islamic Golden Age than in the 19th century when a lot of horses were sold to Egyptian & European nobility? Selling colts into the towns was an important source of income – if a bedu could get more money from a certain type of horse then another, he would probably focus on breeding the type that brought in more money.
Besides the ones succesful in endurance, there are probably only a small minority preservationist breeders succeeding today in selling their products at good prices.
Besides failing to focus on that 5% exceptional breeding stock, I think size is another. People in Europe and in the USA were already bigger in built than the average bedu at the turn of the century but people in Europe & USA today must seem giants compared with the average bedu at the turn of the century.
Sorry to say but there is no future for 14hands Arabian horses with mongrol heads, even if they’re asil. I’m 183 cm tall and look ridiculous on anything smaller than 155 cm, my wife is 168 cm and she looks ridiculous on anthing below 1m50. There are of course exceptions of small horses winning endurances etc (but are endurance riders specifically looking for 14hands horses or are they more interested in 15 hands & taller horses). I had a gelding of 1m51 and he felt taller than my stallion of 1m62 because of his ground covering & elastic movements but what to you do with these ponies if they’re not exceptional? Right, pony clubs or dogmeat!
If preservationist breeders can’t focus on breeding with that 5% exceptional horses as well as breeding horses of a decent size, why would the average rider in Europe or USA be interested in an asil Arabian?
Yasser: Your idea of having diffferent type of competitions over a season is a good one. How about a two mile race in the beginning of the season, so that the trainers whould have to get their horses fit. The second event might be a dressage test with Piaffe, pirouettes, and passage included so that true collection could be assessed. For those who fear that arabs can’t piaffe i reply that, well for example Marge Smith had a
Davenport stallion that would piaffe to entertain himself from time to time. The final event of the season whould be a cross country test with, hills, water jumps, banks, and moats, as well as regular jumps. The combined scores of the three types of tests would be used to qualify entrants for in hand confirmation assessment to be judged by knowledgeable Asil breeders from the cradle countries.
Patrick: I like the moves of that merlin horse, even though bull fighting itself is abusive, mean and disgusting.
Best wishes
Bruce Peek
An asil horse cannot –by definition– have a mongrel head.
As to the maintenance of purity of blood, in the case of the Arabian horse it has never existed as such. Put as asimply as possible, there are two sorts of purity: The first conserns wild animals that can survive in nature without human help. The second “purity” is invented by humans: domestic animals such as dogs, horses and cattle, whilst they had wild ancestors thousands of years ago, are defined into separate breeds by registration in stud books. Registration rules are made to prove which animals are acceptable as members of a particular breed. This concept of man-made purity is only some 200 years old.
Fabienne,Moi aussi, je suis d’accord avec vous! 🙂
Yasser,
Shukran!:)I have been passionate about the Arab horse since I was six years old. I have not the privilege of your Bedouin background and experience, but have journeyed many thousands of miles on the back of an Arab horse and spent many nights in the desert with Bedouin families and our horses. The humbling generosity of our Arab horses during this journey has left me feeling indebted for life to this unique and wonderful horse.
I love your and Bruce’s ideas. There are, here in Britain, premium schemes and performance awards at local and national level but your suggestion of a serious prestigious event to showcase the Arab horse’s proven versatlity and the full spectrum of his many qualities is an excellent one!
Hi Diane,
I am not sure that I truly understand your point, so I appologise if I have in fact misunderstood, but let me assure you that being clear-sighted and objective about the biomechanical integrity of a horse does not render one blind to his virtues, beauty, charisma or style.
I have Arab horses in my own family who have limb faults, I don’t love them any the less for this!
However I feel it is important that anyone seriously involved with horses is absolutely clear about those faults which are of potential significance to a horse’s future soundness (and many, in fact most ‘faults ‘ do not, in fact fall in this category). The reason for this derives from my concern for the future of the individual horse and of the Arabian breed.
In terms of the individual, objective assesment of the limbs will not only allow sensible breeding decisions to be made, (depending on the seriousness/ severity of the fault, a horse may be deemed unsuitable for breeding or may be bred with great care in terms of selection of a stallion for a particular mare), it will also indicate the suitability of a horse for a given career… it is a waste of time, money, effort and above all it is unfair to the horse to ask her to do a discipline such as endurance if she has serious limb faults; finally an assesment of an inividual’s limb alignment may well have a bearing on the trimmimg and shoeing of that horse to help minimise the impact of any faults on the future soundness and thus welfare of that horse.
At a breed level the avoidance of breeding from horses with serious limb faults will, in as much as is possible, ensure that horses bred in the future have the best chance of a long and painfree working life and will help to maintain/restore the reputation of the Arab as a fine riding horse.
It goes without saying that no horse is perfect and that all factors must be seen in the context of the whole horse.
As for the Bedouin ‘just breeding good horses (faults and all)’ this is the crux of my ‘argument’…. soundness, athleticsm and endurance were the very essence of what a ‘good horse’ was to a Bedouin she was the mare who stayed sound and healthy, carried you swiftly into a ghazu, kept you alive in battle and had the endurance afterwards to evade possible pursuit and get her rider home safely. Implicit in this is not only the tremendous athleticism and generous character of the Arabian horse but an inherent soundness.
It is very difficult and demanding for a desert nomad to support a horse, she must justify her keep, something that sadly a lame horse could not have done.
To come back to Edouard’s original point there are in-hand horses today whose limb conformation is so poor that it is impossible that they could remain sound if subjected to anything approaching serious work. This is in my opinion a travesty.
Cheers
Lisa
Teymur,
Purity is not as you note as to the Asil Arabian! The purity implies, that the horse, or horses, trace to the Bedouins as to their breeding’s and standards. Other horses are pure to the standards of that breed.
The Bedouin and their horses are as old as the Bedouins
and their life, past into the present. Most historians would place this over two hundred years. The Arabian Horse of the Bedouin was not covered by registrations as we now fine. They were simply life supporting to the Bedouin. Many writers have claimed, original knowledge of
beginnings, what matters, is that they are!
And, is now, we who have, allowing the past into the future. Many are attempting to continue this gift. To lay claim other then the point of the Bedouin, offers little to truth. The original time is not of interest except for story tellers. I think that Al Khamsa tells all, that the horse is still found Asil, as to tracing to the Arabian Desert and the Bedouin.
Respectfully, Jackson Hensley
Patrick, our posts regaring the bullfighting crossed, I hope it did not appear that my comments re bits etc were directed at you, they were not.
I am an admirer of Iberian horses and equitation, though my little experience and training have been in Portugal not Spain. I do enjoy watching Doma Vacquero (and realise there is no ‘t’ in garrocha! that seeped into my brain from the youtube clip!)
However I cannot watch actual bullfighting, digitally or otherwise, as it involves, in fact celebrates, the torture of an animal. I no more approve of war of course but it is, as you say, in these bloody arenas that such fine breeds of horse have been born. Our challenge is to preserve the immeasurable quality of the resulting horses in a humane and peaceful world!
(actually acheiving a truly humane and peaceful world being an even greater challenge!!)
Cheers
Lisa
Regarding the Antiquity of the breed… isn’t it the case that there are in the ‘sayings of the Prophet Mohammed’ statements regarding the good fortune that will result from the keeping of a ‘purebred’ horse and that the division of the bounty of war was in favour again of warriors riding purebred animals? Furthermore Arab poetry, oral history, rock carvings, ancient Middle Eastern coins, writings from ancient Rome to the European middle ages all amount to a considerable weight of evidence of a distinct Bedouin horse whose history spans more than 2,000 nevermind 200years.
Dear Jackson
The Arabian horse is not a pure original breed descending from an identical age-old ancestor it never was. Most horse breeds are man-made and have been interbreed for many reasons over the centuries. Some retain older, primitive characteristics which are very dominant, indicating genetic uniformity the Norwegian Fjord, the Iceland Pony and the Exmoor Pony, all virtually unchanged since the ice age, are good examples of this. The Arabian horse is, however, along with all its “Oriental” cousins, recognised as the oldest man-made breed in the wolrd. Its great beauty, courage and endurance abilities which we so value today are undoubtedly the result of generations of man’s careful breeding in a hostile environment, where truly only the fittest survived. For far too long the Arabian horse and its origins have been clouded in romantic myths, many embroidered in the West for commercial reasons. Lack of knowledge of the complex history of the Middle East, together with a lack of understanding of its people and their way of life, have made these myths, which still cloud modern thinking, readily acceptable in the West.
Only few of the authors who wrote about the origin of the Arabian horse have an unbiased view or have undertaken any truly original research. The result is that we still know virtually nothing about the breed before the 18th century, although authors like Gladys Brown Edwards and Erika Schiele have tried to enlighten us.
Two of the most persistent myths are that purity of blood as we now know it was meticulosly controlled by the nomadic breeders, and that the interior of the Arabian subcontinent was completely closed off the rest of the world. The travellers and explorers of the last century, wrongly interpreted the way the Bedouin tribes approached the concept of purity of blood (asil). The West sees a pedigree as starting in the past and comming down to the present. The East sees it as starting in the present and receding into the pasit is firmly egocentred around the owner of the horse in question. The truth of the pedigree is irrevelant, what matters is the present and the future, so the past has to accommodate itself. If a horse looked and performed like a desert-bred Arabian, then asil it must be.
Yes Teymur, re:,”if a horse looked and performed like a desert-bred Arabian, then asil it must be.” Um, I simply cannot reconcile that with all of Edouards writing that I have read on this blog, all that the Cravers, and Joe Ferris
have written about, all that Edie Booths family has worked tirelessly to preserve- it goes on. I must be major league misunderstanding your meaning. I know the bedouins did not breed kadishes(sp) if given a choice.
Best wishes
Bruce Peek
Best wishes
bruce Peek
bruce…
This train of thought is completely different from the European point of view and never really understood, probably because the East was approached with a misguided Western superiority. The highlands of the Nejd, where reputedly the best horses were bred, was never isolated from commerce and indeed the nomadic tribes recognised no boundaries. These factors, together with warfare between the nomadic tribes and invasions by other nations, would have resulted in contact with other horse-breeding peoples and their horses.
The latest events urge us to let go of the vague and mysterious past and to safeguard the integrity of the breed as it is today through reliable record keeping and parentage verification. Let’s look forward into the future and not dwell in the past.
Best wishes too…
Dear Teymur and everybody,
Your thoughts are very interesting . For sure we have a totally different situation today compared to the high times of ASIL breeding in Arabia, both in the West and in the oriental countries. We westerners have to “dwell in the past” and I understand by this term that we have to keep in mind the sort of horse of bedouin times in order not the follow the road of breeding “Post-Arab horses”. And also the breeders in the Arab home countries have to dwell in the past because the circumstances that had formed the Arab horse are gone for ever (with some exceptions).
From the long discussion now we see that many of us are aware of our difficulties to preserve and that we have no answer to one fact: There is no more the bedouin life that was the guarantee that the bedouin horse was formed within it.
Matthias
I wish that Joe Achcar were still here to comment!
At least he has been spared witnessing the horror that now rages in Syria.
Dear Teymur,
In my experience Bedouin people of today, even those who no longer have anything to do with horses still are absolutely clear in their minds that horses are either Arab (Asil, Koheilan…) or Kadish. This, to those to whom I have spoken is just how it is, as clear cut as the division of dog and cat,this is coming out of their own mouths, not a western myth or romanticism. Those of whom I am speaking include people living in the desert, or on the edges from Syria down to the Jordan- Saudi border and one very old man with whom I had a long conversation in Sinai about 25 years ago. It also seems to be similarly understood by some horse people in the Maghreb. This is just my experience, I have not spent time in the Arabian peninsula so cannot comment.
Cheers
Lisa
You should start reading your classic Arabian horse literature first – I don’t mean Judith Forbis by classic.
That the bedu of the north was breeding Arabian horses “Polish style” along with their treasured asils can be found in a several books.
I don’t know them all by head but at least in Guarmani’s, Rzezuwuski’s and Raswan’s books is written how the bedu used common mares to breed war horses. Described as Kadish in Raswan’s books, don’t remember exactly how Guarmani and Rzewuski named them (Guarmani’s term ressembled that of Raswan but was somewhat different – Rezwuski named the real thing “Nejdi Koheilan” and the pure thing descending from common mares but looking like the real thing “Koheilan” – he even catalogued his own breeding program as mainly koheilan).
They all described that this type of bedouin horse looked like the real thing but could not maintain his type without re-generation by the pure Arab from the south (or Nejdi Koheilan as Rezwuski catalogued them)
They all clearly describe how the tribes of the north had to regenerate with pure stallions from the south to keep the nobility of these horses, else they would degenerate to the common horses they descended from.
Pure mares were owned by several men, if you were to capture a good horse, (looking like a pure mare or almost), would you run behind a camel or horse on foot because your captured mare was kadish and not pure – and if she was as good as any warmare why wouldn’t you breed her.
Fact remains that the bedu way of life, raiding & living on poor land, shaped the pure Arabian horse and that today there is no subsitute way of life to harden either pure bred or asil Arabian horses.
Based upon “your classic litterature” it is safe to say that although all asil Arabians can be traced to the desert, there is at least a serious chance some European or American buyers went home with a Kadish/normal Koheilan instead of the Nejdi Koheilan.
Might be useful info to keep in the back of your head and a good argument to focus on that 5% exceptional and noble asils – in case one of your asil’s ancestors coming out of the desert was a kadish, bound to degenerate to his common ancestors unless regenerated.
Patrick,
I have read, believe me!! 😉
I too have read repeatedly that the source of pure blood was always regarded as being the south. When discussing our horses with a family in Southern Syria they commented that they loved our purebred mare and that she looked Asil. They described our Arab x Welsh cob mare as ‘Shemali’ …’Northern’ which reinforces your point.
I maintain that the distinstion between Asil (Koheilan) and Kadish is still current in Bedouin people’s minds and has been for very much longer than 200yrs, whether all horses sold to Europeans or Americans as Asil(Koheilan) were in fact so needs to be debated on a case by case basis and obviously in some cases we will never know for sure.
As you say it is important to select the best 5%, I think that the whole essence of Edouards post though is to highlight the conflict that has arisen over which criteria are used to decide what constitues the best, clearly those criteria used in the showring are at odds with what many posting on here, and all my Arab riding friends would use. This is where Bruce and Yasser’s suggestion comes in.
After all this we are just going to continue to ride our lovely Arab horses and compete them in open competition, they can speak for themselves!!( At least I will when I shake off this flu which has kept me within reach of a computer!!!)
cheers
Lisa
sorry Patrick, Could you clarify for me I always felt that the Northern tribes did have Asil (Koheilan) mares as well as some Kadish mares who may have Turcoman blood or whatever, but that they certainly did have Asil mares that they had always maintained throughout their migrations, are you saying the same or are you saying that all mares of Northern tribes are suspect and that the ONLY Asil mares are to be found in the South? If this is the case would you consider Rodania and Queen of Sheba as non Asil?
I think ALL books written by outsiders overthe last couple of hundred years are worth reading but equally none can be relied on too heavily there is simply far too much scope for misunderstanding bias and misinterpretation (Guarmani for example comes out with some patently nonsensical statements), I respect Lady Blunt above all as she was particularly intelligent perceptive and was a person of great integrity and what is more was ever ready to revise her views to correct any past misunderstandings which she herself made made.
It will be interesting to see what Edouard says when he gets back to a computer…
Lisa, there were many tribes in the North but the writers didn’t always meant the same tribes by the northern tribes. When Rezwuski was in Arabia, the Anazeh were still or around Nejdi but being pushed by the 2nd Saudi empire up north – the Shammar were still in Nejd as allies of Saud. When the Blunts travelled Arabia, the Anazeh had basically left Nejd and were in the north, don’t know about the Shammar and when Raswan was in Arabia the shammar were no longer allies of the Sauds either and also up north (although more Euphrates/Iraq than Syria if I’m not mistaken).
If I recall well, Rezwuski described the breeders of “Koheilan” being northern tribes, Kurdes & semi-nomads and the bedu he travelled with in Nejd were Anazeh (or at least enemy of the Shammar which he described as sided with Saud)
In most “Arab horse” literature consider the bedouin in Arabia as something “consistent” and most Arab horse people are confused because the 19th & early 20th century writers all have different stories but rarely people interested in the “history of the Arabian horse” bother reading the history of Arabia.
Although historians suspect that the Blunts perhaps had a double agenda, their “journey into Nejd” was triggered by an earlier traveller, Palgrave, who described the incredible horses in Nejd. The Blunts were dissappointed and described the horses in Nejd as inferior to the Anazeh.
However Palgrave had visited the stables of Saud deep in Nejd while as the Blunts only travelled to Hail visiting the stables of Ibn Raschid who was Sauds remaining opposition.
For me there is no doubt whatsoever that the timeline of history of the Arabian horse is parrallel to that of the house of Saud.
I don’t have read much how the phenomenal horse collection of the 1st Saudi State was gathered (the one Abbas Pasha got away with) but probably not much different than the one of the 2nd Saudi State.
About the influence of the 2nd Saudi State and horsebreeding in Nejd, Rezwuski gives a lot of information on how Saud forced either the bedu with warmares to fight in his wars or used any excuses to confiscate good war mares from the bedu under his influence. Unless they moved out the influence of Saud, this made many bedu sell their priceless mares (to avoid confiscation or to avoid draft).
Same happened with the creation of Saudi Arabia where Ibn Saud confiscated the warmares of his tribes to avoid them going on Ghazus (probably to avoid revolution against him) and described that hundreds of mares got killed by machine guns in his battles. Edouard described before how the Sauds pressured the bedu out of their good horses until well in the 1970ties and beyond Saudi borders.
Haven’t been to Syria or Saudi-Arabia but I find the difference in type & nobility between today’s Saudi and Syrian horses in the pictures on this blog rather striking. The Syrian show only occassional exceptional nobility while as the Saudi … (remember pure mans pictures or the ones Matthias took in Nejd Stud)
My point is only that there is plenty of litterature available that mention the bedu in the north breeding both the real thing as well as horses looking as pure but descending a few generations back from common mares and that the chances are real that not every horse coming out of the desert was in all lines a descendant of Rezwuskis fabulous Nejdi Koheilans – probably an explanation on how certain asil bloodlines have degenerated in nobility so fast.
The Blunts knew what they were doing, I remember however in one of Raswan books how Western buyers got ripped-off and were departing with Kadish horses – he even pictured one imported to America (he named the farm that imported but don’t think he mentioned the name of the horse, if I recall well it was Marlborough or Mayesborough something farm)
Just moved into my new office but my library is still in the attic so can’t look it up for you.
As for Guarmani nonsensical statements – always read a book in the original language, if that’s not possible you have to realise you’re reading a translation and are depending of the ability of the translator to translate not only the words but the meaning & content. Reading Rezwuski in French is a delight, but the English translations are a disaster – at least the ones I have read. Guarmani I have read only in English – don’t know what the original language was (he was Italian but worked both for the French as Italian king so I assume his work was in French) but I speak French & understand rather well Italian so it was easy to see bad translation and read through it.
Would love to have Guarmani in original language – I’m also very much interested in finding Luis Azpeitia de Moro’s book “En Busca del Caballo Arabe” in Spanish, ’cause I assume Steen’s translation of it was as bad as with Guarmani – don’t hesitate to contact me (arab@ven.be) if you know one for sale
Hello Matthias
A Difference that Makes No Difference is No Difference…Isn’t it???
The question of the Purity of the Blood of the Arabian horse may well be as old as the Arabian breed itself. However, in our modern time we have two different approaches to this question: The scientific one and the one that is based on myths and beliefs.
There are still two fractions: the ones who believe that an Arabian horse is only an Arabian if it traces back to desert-bred horses in all lies of its Pedigree and the others who admit that the Arabian horse, along with all the other horse breeds, is a man-made breed and therefore it is man who determines, which horse is a “pure-bred Arabian” by definition. That’s one reason why studbooks were founded.
Today, most people agree that the studbooks and identification of horses should be kept to the best of standards available at the time including computerisation, blood typing, DNA analysis in case of doubt, etc. To avoid any problems today seems to be more important than dwelling in the past to come up with the so-called “problem horses” that have a flaw in their pedigree some 15 to 20 generations ago. Those who oppose these “problem horses” with origins in the middle of the last century, should try to find out without looking at the pedigree which are the ones: No matter wheter they take show results (beauty) or racing or endurance result (performance) as a cirterion, the won’t find a difference. But if these “foreign” genes, introduced about 150 years ago, make no difference in appearance and performance where is the difference, then? I am afraid the difference only exists in the heads of people.
I’ invite you to think about the problems-and if you like, you may let me know what you think…
Best wishes: Teymur…
Teymur: The answer to the question of what will happen if we breed horses that have impurity in their pedigree 150 years ago is that given enough crosses the genetic cards inevitably will re-shuffle to produce visibily impure horses. A shagya breeder I know got a dish faced stallion from a sire and dam who both lacked a facial dish( though they both had good sized foreheads) The stallion in question also turned out to have very good hindquarters too,luckily. I’m not saying we should all go out and breed Shagyas- what I am saying is that given enough crosses and the somewhat random re-assembly and stringing of genes on the chromosomes if there are oddities and anomolies they will show up. If that were not so then Scientists would never have been able to ,’ backbreed,’ various breeds of European cattle to re-construct a bovine that remarkably resembles the extinct Aurochs. Now, it is known from the historical record that the bedouin had kadishes and kohaylans. But the historical record very clearly and emphatically states the preference for purebred, or as sometimes it was referred to the,’ right arabian breed’. To this end the first pedigrees were kept in the Arabian cradle countries. Just because they were kept orally does not make them anyless reliable. We do know that this practice of keeping pedigrees was a cultural practice taken with the arabs when they conquered Spain. It then was adopted by Christian Monks, for example the carthusians who were entrusted to breed spanish horses by King Ferdinand. This particular effort saw what was probably the first systematic reliable written pedigrees. Most likely the bedouin didn’t use written pedigrees( as opposed to a hujjah sp)because in their lives given a choice between carting around several hundred pounds worth of books- or several hundred pounds worth of water most would have chosen the water.
Best wishes
Bruce Peek
One who listens only to one’s own self is of no need for conversation, written or spoken. Just listen, fifteen generations does not matter if type is at that moment fixed. Whose type is being forwarded? The Bedouin’s? The Bedouin Arabian horses had many types. Yes, DNA, says what is known, there are many types, and many mare lines. Michael has answered this many times over! Openly you say admixture is OK, OK to whom, besides you? Certainly not to a Bedouin Breeder, past or present! Certainly not to I! Registries have little in common to what was Bedouin Bred! To ask a registry to remove what is known, is at this point useless! That is why this blog is present. Trying to educate the unknowing, using the best resources possible. Constantly endorsing Al Khamsa and other sources World wide. To devalue Asil is pointless, or to say their is no difference is even more without merit.
Those who wish to work with other sources other then what was once of the Bedouin, do so, but leave the Asil alone
from admixture of out side blood. Enjoy this admixture,
but realize that they do not realize what was once, a Bedouin’s horse.
What Edouard asked, was, what do breeders of the in tacked past wish? Do we separate the new type show horses from the type that could with stand the desert life of the Bedouin?
What now is being presented is not unlike the later discussion. Dilute something enough, and who cares of the
original created idea. Well I do!
Jackson / Bedouin Arabian Farms
Jenny, Jackson, I am with you. This is a very long thread, with a lot of material added in the last couple of days, while Edouard and his family were here visiting. And some of this material I find to be in direct opposition to my reading and my experience. No matter how many grey hairs we have, we are all still students of this breed and the culture that created it, and the learning process never ends. I’m going to send Edouard a text and let him know that his garden here needs tending!
We had a wonderful visit, although the weather was unpleasant and there is never enough time.
bruce, How “Original” is an Original Arabian?
For more than three millennia, the Arabian nomades have been engaged in horse breeding, achieving breeding progress with the help of natural selection based on the brutal climate and the correspondingly difficult conditions for nutrition: this was a forced selection of horses according to hardiness, stamina (= performance), orientation, “courage”, health, “good behaviour”, affection towards humans and the ability to make a lot out of little feed, and only animals who corresponded to these demands where used for further breeding. Depending on local conditions, mild and – more rarely – close inbreeding were used. Besides, there were Partbreds on the Arabian peninsula even during the lifetime of the prophet; under his successors, the Arabians had to conquer the horse – affluent Iran in the beginning of the 8th century in order to establish a numerous army of riders and to consolidate the Islamic jihad in the Arabian – Islamic jihad in the Arabian – Islamic Empire of the 9th century. The influence of foreign blood is also known to come about from captured breeding horses, from what conquerors left or from contacts to the numerous neighbouring peoples and tribes. For example, during the war – like skirmishes on the Nejd highlands in the beginning of the 19th century, thousands of Turkish horses as well as horses from Ethiopia, Sudan and Egypt arrived in the Nejd highlands and left their mark. There were, for example, 1,800 Turkish riders in 1811/1812 (they sold 200 horses in the Hedchas), 2,000 Egyptian riders in 1813 (400 of their horses were captured by the Wahabites), 2,100 Lybians riding Barbs and other horss in 1815/16. Another point to be noted should be the fact that there is an Arabian term “Kadish”, meaning a horse of unknown or non – asile origin – meaning, of course, that such a horses were known in Arabia. As early 1772, Niebuhr referred to that fact. During the last few centuries, loads of horses of other breeds have arrived in Southern Arabia and in the Hejas, and the stallions of the Turkish conquerors and particularly of the nobles had their turn in the 16th century, and of course they were not always “ox”. Often, captured or other non – asile horses were rather impressing in their performance – even if they were not Purebreds. This does not serve to change the fact their genetic influence was forcefully kept to a minimum: most of the horse-breeding Bedouins were convinced of the necessity to keep their animals’ blood pure, as the always bad to keep in mind performance and survival. The fact that they used to sew their asile mares’ vaginas shut with horsehair before setting out on a raid (in order to prevent unwanted covering) demonstrates how serious they took – and had to lake – this. In Nothern Arabia and in Yemen, people were not usually so careful, but then, the studs in Egypt and the Gulf states which are so important for the preservation of the original Arabians today would not usually recruit their horses from these regions. Egyptian rulers such as En – Nasir (gov. 1309 to 1340) and Barquq (gov. 1382/89 to 1390/98) would only resort to the use of stallions from Inner Arabia during the time of the Mamelukes in the 13th to the beginning of the 16th centuries and would then use them to produce riding horses as well as to build up big studs.
Sincerely : Teymur
Really rotten weather here the last few days. But gave me a little time on the computer today. 🙂
I would like to point out that there is a difference between inbreeding with selection… and inbreeding without selection. 🙂 Size would be selection.. either direct or indirect
And then there is the ofttimes repeated horseman’s cliche that (numbers wise) it’s easier to find/breed a good little horse than a good big horse.
And last of all, is the 13-hand Mustang mare “Mercedes” winner of the 2011 Supreme Mustang Makeover (Legends division)”.
https://www.blm.gov/adoptahorse/news.php?news_id=41
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ylju0TqiE6o
AnitaW
Dear Teymur, To answer your question- Asil Arabians are thee most original of any- any breed of horse in existence. That is so because they are thee only breed that only descends from only one of the four ancient subspecies of horse that predated domestication. Asils only come from the ancient Afro Turkik subspecies. Akhal Tekes for example are a blend of afro Turkik and Tarpan. Yes some of them may predate Asils- because on the edges of the two ancient subspecies territory- the geographic area where Afroturkik horses and tarpans intermingled, there would have been some genetic mixing. But we know from the genetic research that Micheal Bowling has done that many of the genetic traits found in todays Asils are thought to have been present BEFORE domestication. Key point. Since that is most likely true. The Bedouin asertion that they and their anscestors have always bred Asil horses gains renewed credibility. How else could genetic evidence that is 9000 years old- post last ice age- have been preserved except by avoiding outcrossing?
I reccomend looking at dr. Deb Bennets Equine Studies Institute web site. Click on her sites knowledge base. And then click the history of three breeds. She better explains the afro turkik subspecies business better than I. And she clearly represents that Arabians are the only horse that is not a blend of the other subspecies. She also had at one time very good things to say about some Jordanian Asils that were incredibly athletic and that were imported but refused registration.
Best wishes
Bruce Peek
My understanding is that the word “kadish” means a horse of unknown origin. The root of the word means “cut” and thus a “kadish” is a horse that has been cut off from its history. A similar concept in the modern western world would be a horse that was sold without papers and its identity lost. The word “kadish” does not necessarily mean a horse of another breed, because if a previously asil Bedouin mare was taken in war and her owner killed and her identity not known, she would be “kadish” to the new owner. My point is that the western concepts of purebred and partbred do not correspond exactly with asil and kadish. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
Hi Patrick,
I did not mean that the statements did not make sense linguistically but as statements of fact.
A simple example; his comments regarding horse colour are nonsense in terms of biology and colour genetics. I am not as fluent as you but do speak French and a little Italian, I don’t feel personally that it is a matter of mistranslation.
His statements regarding strains are also at odds with what I have been convinced of as being the truth by Lady Blunt’s later writings and information given by Edouard , Hazaim and others.
Will certainly contact you if I stumble across the Spanish book.
Cheers
🙂
Lisa
You may have a point. I guess I would like to know what you see as the biggest difference. Are they merely physiological? Also, is there an actual genetic difference? If what you would call “post-Arabians” can still produce what would look like an “original Arabian,” I don’t think there would be any basis for separation in that case.
dear Anita: Hats off to the folks who came up with the mustang makeover. Taking horses with little market value and making them into safe, athletic rides. Eat your hearts out USDF! See absolute size and height doesn’t matter as much as heart and try. That mare can really tuck her fanny and collect! Arabians could do the same if the ,”show system,” weren’t warped beyond all usefullness!
Keely Arabian- Well to my eyes many of the post arabian breeding programs, using non asils are allready producing anomolies. For example a certain ranch here in the U.S. that produces predominantly endurance horses is starting to get horses with ,’ragged,’ couplings. Now their horses have been dominating endurance for decades now- but they reportedly started outcrossing to Polish horses 20 or more years ago. Now they are getting more flat necked, longer coupled horses. See the Polish breeding program was essentially based on reconstructed partbreds- hence the need for the Kuhaylan Haifi- Kuhaylan Zaid importation carried out with carl Raswans help. Then the Poles instituted and devloped their track racing program, which selected for short to middle distance racing conformation of a lower set neck, and a slightly more open coupling. So nowadays if you look carefully you can see a conformational departure from body type like the cravers bred to a more flat racing type body type.
Best wishes
Bruce Peek
Why accept the Asil Club, only the SE and Bahrain and Saudi Arabian horses lines?
No Tunisians, Iranians, Iraqis.
Of the Arabian horses from Turkey, no notice was taken.
What kind of a strategy in this club?
Is it just for the marketing answered: Asil?
Feared competition from the other lines?
Hello Teymur,
the Asil Club had accepted horses from Tunisia, Iran and other countries in the past, as you can see in the first Asil Books. If someone has a horse from those countries and can proof that all of their lines go back to the horses of the bedouins of Arabia, his horse will be accepted.
To answer Your first question: I do not distinguish between a scientific and a mythological approach to Arabian horses, but between science on one side and cultur on the other. Scientificly we cannot distinguish between ASIL and NON ASIL horses. Scientifcly You are right and there seems no difference between both. And still there is a difference, maybe for anyone, but to me and many other breeders. Maybe I am wrong. I prefer the ASIL horse to the non asil and still admire good Arabian horses of any breeding group. That is my personal decision based on what I have read and observed since youth. I respect different views like Yours.
I would also like to say some words to Patrick. Rzewuski has left us a rather uncomplete report of his travells in Arabia. At his time a large part of the Shammar has been in the north for some years already, but they had been defeated by the Pasha of Bagdad and his alies and were without influence for a couple of years in Iraq. As I understand Rzewuski the Nejdi Koheilan and the Koheilan (Shimali) were both asil, the first maybe superior and higher regarded to the second. The Aneze horses the Blunts later saw and aquired in the north were Nejdi Koheilans of Rzewuski´s definition although they were born in the north. The Shimali were with the old tribes of the north that had sometimes settled or became semi nomads. And we should not forget: there has always been interchange between the north and Nejd, in the time of Rzewuski and before and also later until the times of Ibn Saud in the 1950s and later. I cannot see a difference between modern Syrian and Saudi horses today, both have horses of different quality, but Saudi breeders have more money and therefore we see their horses in a far better condition. That may be the reason for a difference.
Matthias
Hello Matthias,
Don’t know about the Shammar at the time of Rzewuski, only that he described being attacked by the Shammar. Probably was not a correct statement that they were allies of Saud as they were conquerred by the Sauds early 1800 and of course during the conquest of Ibn Saud.
As for the interchange, the tribes moved more around that we realise. I believe the Shammar reconquered Nejd around 1880-1890? Wasn’t the Ibn Raschid that the Blunts visited in Hail not a shammar as well? If I recall well the shammar dispersed from the Shammar mountains after being defeated by Saud early 1830’s as far as Euphrate, Iraq & part of today’s Syria while the Anazeh roamed more in Syria and on todays border region of Saudi Arabia but they all got regularly hired again by either Saud or an adversary of Saud.
The bedu would probably know very well and keep trace of the Nejdi Koheilans, probably the reason why the Sauds went after mares beyond their borders
I can’t verify at this moment ’cause my books are on the attic, but I’m pretty sure Rzewuski made a clear distinction between Nejdi Koheilan and Koheilan, the latter not tracing entirely to Nejdi Koheilans and requiring Nejdi Koheilans to regenerate.
Better condition of the Saudi horses could indeed be an explanation why they look in general much more noble than the Syrian’s, although the leading syrian breeders seem to feed good as well. I haven’t visited them so can only judge on pictures & videos which is hard to tell of course. Considering the famine and other troubles of the tribes up north, it could be that the saudis got away with the best nevertheless?
My point is not only that it has been well documented that the bedu also bred Arabians “Polish-style” and probably not every Arabian tracing to the desert was originally of purest origines, especially those that were not bought directly from the bedu.
Together with climate this might be another good argument why regeneration (retrempement) with the purest stallions is required. This idea is not an invention of Mauvy but was discribed already in the 18th century (don’t know who was first, Rzewuski or Guarmani)
Besides climate this might be another reason why certain preservation groups’horses seem to degenerate to something far from their noble ancestors (as far as they were noble in the first place).
On the other hand, some groups seems to hold on very well – such as the Davenports but they went to great efforts I believe to get the real thing and in many parts of the USA there is of course a climate comparable or close to that of the Middle-East and Maghreb.
My other point, already mentioned in a few other topics, is that preservationist breeders shouldn’t be surprised that Waho purebreds market better. It is not because they’re asil, they can be inferior than purebreds, the general market of competition riders, leisure riders and leisure breeders don’t really care. Most are interested in the “versatile Arabian” combining wonderful temperament, beauty and performance ability. Especially in Europe there comes the factor size along with it. People are in general a bit taller here and horses below 1m50 / 15 hands will market harder.
I agree with you patrick…
Unfortunately I can not post pictures.
So you can see the differences between the horses.
There was no single type at the Arab thoroughbred.
What is a typical Arab type of horse?
All possible!
Similarly, the first imports of the Blunts … many were bought by Turks.
Also interesting, why have these imports, no Hujjah?
Wow, I left for 6 days and in the meantime 75 reactions on this thread..
Many good points from all sides, including a lot of things from Patrick and Teymur that I happen to agree on, and some things that are more open to discussion. I will make a few comments on my own on a new topic/thread.