Porte CF
… a Kuhaylan Hayfi grandson of Portia. This was taken yesterday (22 Sep 2012) at the New Albion Stud in Davis CA. (Also recently confirmed by a repro vet: Porte’s semen should ship well.)
A blog on desert arabian horses, past, present and future
… a Kuhaylan Hayfi grandson of Portia. This was taken yesterday (22 Sep 2012) at the New Albion Stud in Davis CA. (Also recently confirmed by a repro vet: Porte’s semen should ship well.)
a Kuhaylan hayfi grandson of BABAMEVLUT GR-1 WINNER RACE
kuhaylan hayfi very famous in turkey
He also goes to Portia in tail female.
Would be interesting to see some video’s of the Davenports under saddle. I assume with 10 years old, he’s already ridden? (in which case he doesn’t seem a very forward horse)
He was in training for eventing when he was diagnosed with EPM. He had just started treatment a few days before this was taken.
I too was disappointed by this lovely looking horse’s movement,though in the video the lady does say he is not moving as he should due to the ‘hard ground'(?). It would be nice to see him move when in peak form, hope that will not be too long…great that he has been in event training!!
I’ve seen videos of him under saddle and have seen him in person under saddle. He’s quite forward and loose when he hasn’t been cooped up getting medical treatment and then let loose in a field surrounded by mares. The hard ground will make them “mince” more than trot out, which is why dressage folks get so particular about footing.
This horse has had a rough go of things: injuries, neglect, and now a bout of EPM, so I think I’m a bit defensive about him when people say they’re disappointed in his movement. To put up a “before” video would be shocking.
This video is taken in the same space as the one from which the Trilogy still just above it was excerpted. As you can see, the ground has not been worked up this year. We have adobe soil, which means Porte is effectively out there on one big brick.
Perhaps all this is too much explanation, but like Shirin, I can’t let it go without comment. We’ll just have to revisit Porte when his coordination is fully back to normal.
I only put ? after hard ground as I would still expect a fresh horse to move pretty freely when first let loose however hard the ground .. it’s not like he’s done 100 miles on this going BUT I understand that he has had EPM. He is a lovely looking horse and I can well believe that he moves beautifully when in full health… I wish him a speedy recovery and look forward to seeing him again!! Very best of lick with his ridden career!
Lisa
Sorry to say, if it’s because of EPM the owner doesn’t sound a very honest person either as she’s mentioning the hard ground excusing his poor movements. I assume they’re showing the stallion to people interested in breeding (or buying) the horse …
Regardless the excuses, hard ground, neglect, EPM, … you should not distribute videos and pictures if your horse is having a bad day.
As for the hard ground. My horses hardly hold ever back on concrete, I usually have to calm them down. They’re of course only pure breds or straight Egyptian asils so they have already been hardened for generations with our western concrete environment. Direct descendants from the desert chargers like the Davenports are or course not yet hardened to these conditions 🙂
(sorry, couldn’t resist … I assume you will now react that it is only because of the EPM)
Cool story, bro.
@Patrick
The person speaking on the video is not the owner of the horse, Patrick. That’s an interesting assumption you make, though.
There was more than one assumption in that comment….
Hey, I haven’t been on here much for a while (busy breeding season at work, riding etc etc) but seeing Jeanne’s name reminded me..have you Jeanne and Edouard completed the book you were talking about a year (ish) ago.. would love to get a copy if it’s been published?
Lisa
@patrick: I would have to say that it speaks of the intelligence of the horse if they can realize that the footing that they are on is potentially dangerous and, therefore, modify their and gait and behavior accordingly. IMHO.
Hi Carrie, I am JOKING here but couldn’t resist, your post to Patrick would be equally vaild if you replaced the word horse with ‘poster’ and removed the words ‘and gait’ … 🙂
Please everyone I am joking …there is no need for any bad feeling, OK Patrick and I were slightly disappointed with this beautiful horse’s movement but neither one of us knew the full story… which we now do, so lets just hope he can show us his undoubtedly lovely action when in full health… very preferably at an event! Again I wish him the very best of luck (as opposed to ‘lick’ sp) in his ridden career.
Patrick, what a strange post… yes full of assumptions. And do you think the desert has no hard ground? not all sand at all.
I have seen Porte at liberty in Tulsa in 08 and at the open house last week (no, no sales pitch), and I loved him both times but even better now.
Well Lisa, I had no idea I would be on “potentially dangerous” footing just speaking my mind as others have in this forum. JK
I believe “poster” Patrick seeks out dangerous footing when he dons his troll suit…
@christine: of course the desert has hard ground, it was meant ironically that pure breds are more used to hard ground because fo generations of contact with concrete. Hard ground should not be an excuse for an Arabian not to move around freely. It happens of course when hoofs are just trimmed a bit too short, but then you should of course not make video’s – especially not to publish on a blog that is probably visited by hundreds of breeders 🙂
This blog more or less claims performance superiority for the direct descendants of desert chargers, so far there is little or nothing shown to support that.
Ok, I’ll respond to,’so far there little or nothing shown to support that.’ I beg to differ. Edouard, a while back you had posted a photo of a gal riding a Hanad son,or possibly grandson. IIRC it was taken in the early 70’s or so. Anyway the photo showed the horse in true collection at the canter. The horses Lumbar-pelvis junction were at the same height as his neck-shoulder bed. His neck arched, and his nose at the vertical with the poll elevated, and his back lifted. The shanks of the bit were vertical indicating that the rider had just freed her hands, and she also is shown with her calves taken away from the horses sides. This is a perfect illustration of descentes de maines- descents de jambs(SP) freeing of the hands and legs. It epitomises french Classical high School. Only it is being done at a garden variety ahsa sanctioned horse show. Possibly because the rider knows full well that the nitwit show judge will mark her down if he sees her with,” unsteady contact”, with the reins. She is essentially disguising her reward of the horse for providing true collection as she has asked. Sometimes if you know what to look for and how to recognise it you will see a diamond in a dungheap. The diamond in this instance being correct ahtletic performance of horse and rider, and the dungheap being any of several hundred lame ahsa horseshows where stiff and crooked movement is rewarded because judges are taught to value a horse moving in a,”frame,” as long as the rider has their legs jammed against the horses sides and their hands blocking the bit with a square feel because thats what the german show-FEI dressage riders do and by god those show- FEI riders exemplify the revealed truth of how a horse should perform correctly. So yes indeed there have been several examples given of desert charger descended horses performing in a superior manner.
Best wishes
Bruce Peek
Dear Bruce,
I appreciate exactly the same sort of horsemanship that you do, (jambes btw!). I know that you are a very knowledgeable and educated horseman, I invariably agree with your posts, but I don’t think that being an excellent ridden Arab and being ‘non asil’ are mutually exclusive.
I have said before, I don’t believe that my horses are of equal merit to Asil horses in terms of pedigree… we have Skowronek in there. However in terms of loyalty, generosity of character, physical Arabian type (though not to the point of caracature), endurance, athleticism etc I believe them to be worthy of the name Arab and defy anyone to fault them in these terms. They have excellent endurance form at advanced level and for example a Portuguese trainer who rode for years for the Portuguese School of Equestrian Art said to me after giving me a lesson on my Crabbet gelding..’ Whoever castrated this horse commited a crime, this is the best Arab I have ever seen in my life’… and that is 100% due to my horse’s extreme agility and naturally beautiful movement not to my mediocre riding.
A good Arab is a good Arab, if he Asil he is absolutely of even greater worth, particularly for breeding but I cannot agree that Asil horses invariably surpass purebreds as ridden horses,(and I am refering here to decent purebreds not the exotic weeds of the inhand ring).
I will happily race anyone at any distance on any going on my Crabbet, if anyone fancies trying to prove me wrong!!
I am a person who respects the sanctity of Asil breeding has learnt a lot from this site and as I said in a thread below would consider for example importing a Davenport, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating,I will never accept that one can truly judge a horse without riding him/her.
I admire you Asil breeeders, all I would say is rather than talking to each other about how fabulous your horses are get out there and prove it (as some do, I know) I do not doubt they will bring themselves, and their bloodlines great honour.
With respect
Lisa
PS Please don’t entirely STOP talking to each other about how fabulous your horses are because they ARE fabulous and I have loved seeing pictures and videos of them!
A good example of an asil breeder,( though he may not call himself that) would be Crocket Dumas(sp) he has been breeding pritzlaff horses for years and proudly noted on his website at one time that Carles Crave said to him ,’ you are one the few people who are doing what they should with these horses.” Crockets horses are sought after by the Endurance community and they essentially go back to Rashad ibn Nazeer, Bint Moniet El Befous, Rabanna and Bint Dahma. A lot of the Rashad horses greatly resemble him, and show what joe ferris has noted as the influence of strong mare families- in the case of Dymoni RSI for example the rodania family. They are big rangy rascals 15.1 or so ample bone, maybe a bit plain in the head( which you don’t ride anyway so there)but able to go all day and then continue on into the night.
I must say that i cannot recall ever having seen any post here saying that non asils were somehow less horse than cradle country horses or al khamsa stock. I do admit to poking WAHO with red hock sticks as it were for its purblind dishonesty as to how much non arab blood it has sanctioned by accepting the Polish, Russian, Spanish,and french and U.S. studbooks without noting that 98% of the horses listed therein are not asil. And for even allowing those idiotic stretched halter classes with eye makeup on the horses. I appreciatte non asil arabs for the horses they show themselves to be. But I know that excellent as most of them are they would not exist were it not for the cradle country asils brought out to us in the west by the Blunts, Homer Davenport, General al Haddad, Raswan, etc. The thing is once the asils are gone they are gone. You can’t get back to Kuhailan Hayfi by back breeding bask and El Paso get. Someone has got to pickup the glove-carry the torch, whatever. Along the way it seems to me they also need to avoid the showbiz traps the WAHO folks have fallen into of turning their horses into panzy as**ed toys, that no sporthorse breeder would think about using to add brains and brilliance to his warmblood mares with.
best wishes
Bruce Peek
Unsurprisingly Bruce we do not disagree when I look at it carefully..
1) I don’t know what AHSA stands for butI assumed it to be an American Arab horse society, in which case I took it that all but the Asil in the example were constituents of a ‘dungheap’.
2) My horses DO of course manifest the vitues of horses imported by Blunts and the Davenport (in one case) because they are their direct descendants and please, it goes without saying that I appreciate the vitrues of the Bedouin horse.. I am a devotee. There is a general impression sometimes given on here that eg Davenports are descendants of Bedouin ‘chargers’ (a word that reminds me of lumbering British cavalry horses, not the fluid light agile little war horse of the desert whose chracteristic is to go at the speed of light then stop in a stride and turn on a sixpence, handiness is their hallmark as much as speed and endurance hence BTW that agility of my gelding admired so much by the Portuguese trainer),whereas purebreds seem to be regarded as basically some sort of European clodhopper cross. Well the evidence history, of our eyes and of the formbook refutes this in the vast majority of cases, it is desert blood that courses through the veins of the horses to which I refer and it is to the Bedouin to whom we are endebted for their excellence.
3) The only difference between my horses and an Asil horse is Skowronek (Dwarka also concerns me in the case of one of them but hang on.. Dwarka is Ok because he is Asil because……???).
4)I concur of course that Skowronek cannot be accepted as Asil but…
a)He was a beautiful horse of marked Arabian type (horrible word) who, more importantly, was a renowned, in fact world famous progentor of Arabian quality, and as ‘blood will tell’ I think the proof is there that in terms of his genetic inheritance we can be assured that it was overwhelmingly Arabian ( though not, I accept Asil)
b) The concerns in Polish pedigrees regard the mares, some of which have recently in mtDNA studies been shown to have shared mtDNA with the likes of Rodania.The effects of war and revolution which Poland has suffered resulting in loss of stud books must also be borne in mind. The Poles had been importing Arabs for 400 years prior to his birth, so the questionable dam lines or ‘Polish mares’ owned by the renowned Polish Arab breeders were not some local cart horse but quality mares of Arab blood.
I am not disputing that Skowronek has some stains in his pedigree and this renders Crabbet horses since his use non Asil, I am just pointing out that all the others are without question Asil Queen of Sheba, Rodania,Mesaoud, Helwa et al and that thus the minute drop of non Arab blood (if any) that he may have been introduced by Skowronek is, to all intents and purposes irrelevant in terms of the phenotype of the horse standing in front of us today.
OF COURSE in terms of pedigree he has forever contaminated the blood the Lady Blunt + WSB so carefully collected and preserved and that is a crying shame.
Without seeing their pedigree I don’t believe anyone on this planet could guess my horses are not Asil, not by riding them looking at them living with them or by analysing their mtDNA (Rodania, Selma,Helwa) so I do find it upsetting when people talk of purebreds as if they were an entirely different entity rather than the same gold of a minutely lesser degree of purity.
5)WAHO dishonesty.. agreed.
6)Make up, posing and all the other degrading nonsense… absolutely agreed.
There are many, thousands, of truly lovely purebreds who carry blood lost to Asil breeding and I don’t believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater..I would like to see WAHO re-evaluate, have a ‘super elite’ inviolate category of Asil horses, then ‘purebreds’ eg broadly Crabbet,Courthouse,CMK etc etc then I don’t know what to say about the Polish, certainly I would keep them registered but in a separate category then absolutely remove that Amers of this world from the stud books. That way the worst of the mistakes can be gradually diluted out and there may be more awareness and use of Asil horses. I would never suggest that once lost Asil status can be regained, I respect and admire Asil breeders and if I found a line that I liked that was of TRULY proven performance I would consider buying a colt with a view to competing endurance and standing him at stud here.
I suppose as my horses are not Asil I am considered as a member of ‘ WAHO folks’ but I certainly haven’t fallen into any showbiz trap and nor have most of my friends who also own and breed fabulous ridden Arabians. On the contrary if I could time travel I would be certain that any Bedouin ghazi would not only survive a war/raid on the back of one of my horses but would come home with a smile on his face!
Best wishes
Lisa
Sorry about above rant, thanks Bruce for the lead on the Pritzlaff horses… v interesting!
I know what I want to find, an Asil stallion material colt,to make about 15 hh of mainly Blunt bloodlines but welcome any Davenport, Saudi, Syrian, Babson, Tawahi etc blood from lines proven at HIGH level endurance with excellent conformation,beautiful movement,low heart rate, lovely but not extreme head, fine tail carriage and above all a real people loving Arab temperament…anyone any offers?..I don’t mind what colour!! 🙂
Failing that I think I will stick with Crabbet and accept Skowronek as the flaw in the diamond.. and silently curse Lady W every time I read this site!!
I am now going to take my ‘Pansy arsed’ (Bruce!!:))WAHO ‘toy’ to train on a local racehorse trainers gallops!!
I am not qualified to comment on the horse’s movement or any of the other things discussed on this thread. One thing was clear, though: He was certainly happy to be let off that lunge line.
Where is the “like” button for Lisa’s posts?
That button is pressed by default on each one of lisa’s posts!
Lisa the pansy—– comment referred to the halter stretch eye makeup ginger tailed crowd, not to ridden athletes like yours. AHSA stands for American Horse Show Association. The crabbet horses that i’m familiar with have pretty much all seemed asilish to a much greater extent than for example the french racing stock.
Given that the CMKs most folks are familiar with had an asil genetic base up until they were crossed with Raffles, and raseyn which in many cases strengthened their hindends, its difficult to see how they were greatly harmed by the addition of Skowronek blood in their phenotype.
best wishes
Bruce Peek
One question: Did the Bedouins have only asil horses?, or, like we now, arabs but not all asil? What was more asil or not asil?
best wishes
gerd
Wow, Gerd, that’s a question that requires a new post. I will address that.
The same horse is going to move differently in different footing, which might be sloppy, fast, deep, hard, e.g. Is that even arguable?
Neither footing nor EPM are inheritable from a sire, as far as I know.
Reading this exchang on what “should” or “should not” be posted reminded me very much of Dvanport’s observation:
“When the Bedouins were showing a horse,
or mare, it was quite a relief to see an animal,
where the defects, if any, were never con-
cealed. They just brought the horse and
squatted down by him. No attempt was made
to straighten his mane. If he had a blemish,
they were more than likely to back him up to
you. so the blemish was the first thing you saw.”
A bit different from the typical Occidental horse-trader, eh?