Why Skowronek?
Skowronek’s widespread presence in the pedigrees of horses registered as Arabians is arguably the raison d’etre for a number of different preservation initiatives including Al Khamsa, the Asil Club, the Pyramid Society and probably even this blog. Since I was a boy, I had heard about Skowronek and thought his non-Arabian ancestry was common knowledge since the 1940s when my grandfather first learned about it. Attending the 2017 WAHO conference made me realize I was mistaken. Below are a number of viewpoints from people I either personally interacted with or overheard during my trip:
Two Arabs friends, from different Middle Eastern countries, who wanted to know what I thought about the whole Skowronek issue. Is he really not Asil?
A prominent British breeder who had this to say to me when I mentioned Skowronek and his non-Arabian ancestors: “Oh that’s not proven now is it? It’s just unsubstantiated rumor.”
A European breeder conversing at a dinner table: “Oh the DNA shows the Asil horses are all part breds too, so who cares?”
A European and an Australian shouting in a bus: “All the evidence has been published on Skowronek over 50 years ago. He has non-Arabian blood in his pedigree” said the European. “That’s bullocks! I read that so-called ‘evidence’ years ago. My registry says he is pure, so he’s pure,” said the Australian.
An Australian commenting: “WAHO accepts Skowronek as pure so that’s all that matters.”
When I returned home I thought more about the particular problem that my Arab friends faced. Unlike the vast majority of Westerners, they actually cared if a horse was pure. A horse’s untainted connection to the Bedouin tribes of Desert Arabia attracted them at a personal level. It was part of their own cultural identity as Arab men. However, because their English language ability was inadequate for complex topics, they had to rely on what others told them about horses bred in the West. How could they sift through all the conflicting opinions?
Out of my own curiosity and in an effort to help answer the question my Arab friends posed, I started digging into the subject. Everyone directed me to Ursla Guttmann’s book The Lineage of the Polish Arabian Horses published in 1968. This presented a challenge, how could you actually get your hands on a copy of a book that has been out of print for 50 years? When I finally was able to get it from a friend, I found all the Polish names just blended together. Even as a native English speaker, it was hard to penetrate. I read it numerous times before I was able to make sense of it all. While compelling, Guttmann gave me more questions than answers. Her book is largely based on secondary sources written in German. Were there any Polish primary sources available today or were they all “destroyed in the wars” as many claim? Had anything relevant to the issue been discovered in the past 50 years? Could DNA provide any answers? How did WAHO fit into this whole issue? Moreover, how should Skowronek be judged? Is this the best advice one could offer a person who wanted answers about Skowronek: go find, then read, a 50 year old, hard to follow, German and English book?
With these questions in mind I created the FaceBook page “Skowronek-A Partbred Arabian Horse” and registered the website www.skowronek.io. With the help from friends, I spent the better part of 2018 digging up every major primary and secondary source ever referenced in connection with Skowronek. At this time only a few sources remain unattained. The next step is to translate the critical material from Polish, Russian, French and German into English.
The origin of Skowronek’s non-Arabian ancestors, referenced in primary sources that date back to 1799, will not surprise the readers of this blog. What some observers may find more interesting is the past 100 years of lies and duplicity by some of the most prominent names in the Arabian horse world.
The end state of this effort is a digital source, in simple language, which clearly traces and analyses Skowronek’s ancestry and the story of the debate behind it. Although the main repository for this information will be the website mentioned above and the Facebook page, I will cross post on this blog and present the main findings and sources here as well.
I really look forward to this.
I am very much looking forward to seeing the Polish and Russian translations, to check my attempts against them. Having the primary sources accessible is fantastic and so important.
This should make interesting reading, but I am not sure why this is headlined as a discussion of the Skowronek pedigree. Skowronek’s distant Slawuta ancestors, as well as his closer ancestors like his grandsire Rymnik, are widespread in 20th century Polish Arabian pedigrees. It seems to me to be more a discussion of Slawuta breeding in general.
Although since I own asil horses, I noticed the difference between pure breds & asils, first I’m pretty sure quite a number of hajin’s” skipped the maze of the net and were registered as purebreds.
Second, what are you trying to proof (again)? Everybody knows the pedigree of Skowronek is doubtful least to say and today breeders of pure bred Arabians even can live with the proven partbred pedigrees of the South-American Arab horses.
Third, who are you Lyman Doyle to say the WAHO Arabians are mongrels? Have you looked at your own horses? Breeding from the same 3 or 4 foundation horses for how many horse generations? This has brought you where? A barn full of horses with the same conformation faults as the original foundation. That’s not breeding, that’s just multiplying. There are nevertheless asil stallions available with serious paperwork behind them and which could breed out the faults of your stock. You probably pee in your pants to do so because it would mean it could show you know nothing about horse breeding. How could you, breeding always the same horses, expecting always the same …
Fourth, this discussion has been going on forever, with Hansi Heck and others picking fights they could never win. What are you hoping to gain by insulting WAHO breeders & studbooks that they register mongrels? What do you gain by insulting people that do manage to breed far more superior horses than you, despite perhaps their hajin pedigrees. It only proofs you are a f… moron and Edouard an idiot because you discredit his cause for the asil Arabians.
Let the WAHO studbooks what they are: studbooks for pure bred Arabians … when are you folks finally going put your money where your mouth is and make sure we have studbooks where we can register our asil Arabians. This is the only way to show that the difference between the WAHO purebred’s and asil Arabians.
To quote Georg Olms the president of the Asil Club in Europe (don’t recall the exact context and text): “and if there weren’t asil Arabians, we would all breed pure bred Arabians”.
Well some of us breed both and admire both.
I would be the first to double register my asil Arabians with a new studbook.
You are a disgrace calling pure bred Arabians mongrels while many of you cannot tip the average quality of pure bred Arabians with the mongrels you breed.
First make sure you have a new studbook so this discussion can end, then proof that you can breed quality horses that can compete with the pure bred Arabians so the studbook can survive. And maybe also time to lower your high noses here on the straight Egyptian lines, they are the only asil lines that are doing well – in breeders barns, in performance, in shows and on the international market.
You have Al Khamsa in the USA and Asil Club in Europe, what stops you from creating the Asil Arabian Horse Society register on a joint database?
Patrick, man, take it easy, this is research, based on facts. People do whatever they want with it. Like climate change.
Abusing research to attack breeders by saying their horses are mongrels is not research. To quote Natascha Bojawal on this idiot’s skowronek facebook page “By your word choices are you no longer credible and lose imo all your credits”.
Patrick,
I had a feeling that adding Lyman Doyle to the blogger roster was going to ruffle some feathers based on what I’d observed on his Facebook page. I’ve mostly refrained from commenting in any which way, as Skowronek has always been a hot-button topic for Arabian breeders of all realms. But, while mongrel certainly has a negative connotation and it wouldn’t have been my first word choice, by your own admission Lyman is likely not correct in calling certain types of Arabians that don’t meet the specific cultural notion of asil (which we can all, hopefully, agree is where the notion of the Arabian horse first came from) half-breds, part-breds, etc. At the very least, it will be good to see the primary sources lifted to a broader level of accessibility for all interested parties involved. I personally wouldn’t mind seeing more of the historiography around Skowronek, either, as he’s served as something as a litmus test for asil breeders and has been hailed as something of a messiah for those convinced of his purity, if not his authenticity (which I think are, while related, still different concepts that merit a distinction) but where there is no current central source describing the history of the controversy around him. That would make for an interesting read, as well.
I’ve also never understood why the Doyle horses get such flack from other breeding programs, except that in some ways it does remind me of some of the issues that contemporaries and future generations had/have with the Huntington program in terms of a closed gene pool. And yet that program ended up being very important down the road, both in asil preservation efforts and elsewhere, for all that it was disliked by Homer Davenport. Many of the Straight Egyptians, which are arguably the most plentiful of asil bloodlines, are quite heavily inbred as well, when you look at the prevalence of Nazeer and the use of other branches of his sireline in concert with his own – and not without their own faults, if you really want to point fingers at the horses.
But I digress. I fail to see the point in mud-slinging. We’re at a point in history where we have arguably the greatest breadth of access to information available at out fingertips, with new information being uncovered every day. Entire fields of historical study make their bones on discussing and re-hashing historical topics that have already been discussed to death (and with good reason, there’s always more to learn), and I don’t see why Skowronek (a horse born over a century ago, dead 88 years ago, and whose life will have slipped from living memory in the veery near future), or the breeding programs of Poland (of which we have lost SO MUCH of the information on, and which there’s probably always going to be room for historical inquiry) is something that should be exempt from such an examination. Particularly when, as evidenced here to say the least, the stallion in question is a subject of controversy.
Providing facts and information about part-bred Arabians registered as purebreds is of course welcome but as WAHO is never going to exclude Skowronek or even the proven South-American partbreds, there is no point insulting breeders of pure bred Arabians that they breed mongrels and calling others frauds.
Patrick – debate and discussion is good. Present with facts and be intelligent enough to use those facts to present your point and give us an opportunity to change our mind. Do you think swearing and criticizing the way you do will make us favor your views? Think about that before you continue further.
If you breed an Arabian horse to a non-Arabian horse, the offspring is part Arabian. If you take that offspring and breed it to an Arabian, the offspring is still part Arabian. If you keep following this pattern for a number of generations, you still have offspring that is part Arabian.
This offspring can be referred to many different ways, including part Arab, partbred Arab, or a horse of mixed blood. Arabic terms like Hajin or Kadish would also work. I prefer the term mongrel, because everyone knows what it means.
The evidence that I will introduce in the coming months will show that Skowronek’s ancestors have been mongrels since 1799. As such, Skowronek is a mongrel, and so are all of his descendants.
So how about a head to head comparison of randomly chosen Skowronek breds and Asil horses? The most obvious conformational drawback of the Skowronek breds is that they tend to be sheep shouldered. In direct contrast many line bred straight new egyptians have weak couplings. Horses uniquely among quadripeds have a lumnbar structure that enables them to Bascule, arch their back, equally distribute their weight over all 4 legs and are kind of adapted to carrying a riders weight. Cows, for example, do not. One of the positive things that Skowronek was known for was a good couplings among his descendants( doubly good when bred to Hamra line Kellog horses. In addition many of the early Kellog horses had sufficient , straight leg bone – something that has been lost in many modern arabs , both asil, and waho. The quest for good legs was an attribute that was shared by several of the truly great breeders of the past- Tibor Von Pettko de Szandter(sp) Albert W. Harris etc.
Patrick I’m all for a registry that is open to all reasonably documented asils. Only set up the registry like some of the modern wamrblood lists with verifiable measurements of the horses height, weight, legbone, length of body and length of hip, height of neck set , and length of shoulder, taken at 5 years of age when the animals skeleton is done growing. Pointing out the conformational attributes of the Asils would then most likely also encourage the Waho folks
to do the same, thus accomplishing everybodys goal of allowing us all to improve our stock.
Oh, and forget the cursing o.k. Trying to imitate Brett Kavanaughs’ insane diatribe about Hillary Clinton conspiracys that don’t exist will simply make people laugh at you Patrick, and ultimately defeat your purpose. Capeesh?
best
Bruce Peek
Sorry Bruce, I can’t resist: when Hillary Clinton spoke about the “vast right-wing conspiracy,” was that also an insane diatribe about a conspiracy that didn’t exist? Or not?
Well R.J. not really. Cuz, two things, first she said she wondered if there wasn’t a vast right wing conspiracy. Quite different from definitively claiming to know that questions about criminal allegations constitute a political hit with requisite conspiracy and planning before hand. And second people often get a business plan confused with a conspiracy. The right wing conservative business plan of corporate and business control of the u.s. government funded by reactionary right wing political donors is proceeding apace. The monied right in the u.s. does not have to conspire they can, thanks to citizens united and other looney tunes supreme court decisions simply buy any number of pundits, political pursuaders and office seekers to asccomplish their goals.
So you are partly correct. Its not a right wing conspiracy it is actually a business plan carried out by people who have been quite effective in achieving their goals. In contrast Hillary Clinton has twice demonstrated that she does not have her husbands political talent, let alone the business acumen needed to secretly destroy a political opponent. Kavanughs true purpose in ranting about Hillary was to throw red meat to the republican know nothing political yahoo base.
best
Bruce
Skowronek descendants and even the South-American lines in the closed WAHO studbooks are no mongrels by linguistic definition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purebred). Neither are thoroughbreds, Shagya’s, Lusitano’s, Friesians, … they are all pure-breds by linguistic definition. I haven’t visited the WAHO website in many years but if I recall well they have adapted their breed definition a long time ago to the linguistic meaning of pure-bred instead of the desert source horses. So no, people will not understand why you call their horses mongrels and legally you are indeed on thin ice as pointed out on your facebook when you call people frauds for this.
Furthermore Arabian pure-breds in the meaning of Skowronek were already well established in the early 1800 in northern Arabia, Egypt and many other places. It has always been assumed they required regeneration by asil Arabians (described by both Rzewuski as Guarmani long before the Blunts as the Nejdi Koheilan) to keep their characteristics.
Which doesn’t take away the need or wish of certain people to have the asil Arabians within the registered Arabians registered and breeders educated of the need for re-generators and understand the difference between the asil and pure-bred Arabians.
But then comes the main question how many of the horses entered in Al Khamsa or Asil Club will really fit the definition of asil Arabian. Are you going to draw the line there? How long do you think it will it take for skeletons to fall out of that closet when you transfer Al Khamsa & the Asil Club into a real studbook.
Or weed them out based upon their appearance as Bruce suggests … are you sure that your horses have only 5 lumbar vertebrae & 17 ribs? Considering most Doyle Arabians are sway-backs with short steep croups and high sacral bones I understand you don’t want them included in your registry because they don’t meet the breed principal physical standards …?
So again what are you hoping to gain by attacking pure bred Arabians as mongrels and some of their breeders as frauds? Promote asil Arabians? Educate? That’s no promotion or education … what you are doing is the opposite.
Put your money where your mouth is and open a register for horses meeting the definition of asil Arabians, all the rest is plain BS by now …
“Skowronek descendants and even the South-American lines in the closed WAHO studbooks are no mongrels by linguistic definition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purebred). Neither are thoroughbreds, Shagya’s, Lusitano’s, Friesians, … they are all pure-breds by linguistic definition.”
That is a very good point, Patrick. They are purebred Arabs in English. They are not asil. Unfortunately, in Arabic purebred = asil.
Thats the point of including the individual horses specific measurements. For example ( yet again) Mandarin cf, stood 1/2 inch over 14.3, weight taped at 875 in good flesh so probably truly scaled at 915, had 7 and 3/8ths inch cannons and a 19.5 inch hip. He was as authentic as any asil you’d care to name, and was also a good mover. Listing him in a stud book for Asils with authenticated Hujas so that the prospective breeder with say a pmu thoroughbred cross mare could have a good bet of not losing leg bone, and strengthening the back and hindquarters would be a true service.
best
Bruce Peek
As part of my research into Skowronek’s ancestors, I uncovered some personal correspondence between Roman Sanguszko Jr. and Wilfred Blunt written in 1899. Viewers may find it interesting that the topic of their correspondence was Arabian Horse Stud Books. The problems associated with Stud Books, which are clearly outlined in the letters, are at the heart of some of the comments above. The correspondence will be translated in full from the original French and released in due course as the Skowronek story unfolds.
The primary source evidence confirming Skowronek’s mongrel ancestry is not surprising. What is more interesting, as the comments above allude to, is what transpired over the 100 years since Skowronek’s registration. After his ancestry is analysed, I will review some of the main articles and books written on this subject since the 1920s and apply this simple standard to the authors: What did they know and when did they know it?
Did they lie? Did they deceive? Did they commit fraud? After considering all the evidence, observers should be able to find the answers on their own.
Stay tuned.
Lyman, will you make the original French documents available, as well?
The original handwritten French letters will be available along with a transcription in French as well as a translation into English.
“That is a very good point, Patrick. They are purebred Arabs in English. They are not asil. Unfortunately, in Arabic purebred = asil.”
As the Arabians in WAHO are all pure-breds by definition (WAHO adapted their definition to the linguistic definition instead of desert source) it is pointless to go into conflict about any non-desert sources – nothing will be changed, there is no need either as the pure bred is by western standards.
Most people here don’t understand yet that by changing its definition WAHO shifted the problem to the breeders that want to distanciate/preserve asil lines from pure breds.
As WAHO changed its definition and all Arabians registered in WAHO are by definition pure breds, the discussion can only be ended by creating an asil Arabian horse studbook (which horses could be double registered of course in both the asil book as in WAHO).
You have been outsmarted a long time ago but you don’t realize it. Arlene Magid is 100% right on Facebood that Doyle makes himself seriously liable if she wanted so.
Yet the more important to educate the potential difference, maybe especially to the Arabs if the translation is different (which is not only in arab the case but many other languages) And above all educate the potential need for re-generators (which is very easy to do, best example are the Poles who have imported every 2 – 3 horse generations new blood from the desert and when desert sources were unavailable or didn’t suit their needs anymore by using Egyptian lines, first in 2nd generation (Palas) and later directly.
WAHO is undoubtedly part of the Skowronek story. In due course, we will examine the organization’s short history. Using WAHO’s own publications we will describe what it is and what it is not. Some viewer’s may be surprised at what they find when they understand more about WAHO. However, that topic is for another post after the full story has been told, perhaps sometime next year.
I’d like to address the issue of potential legal action against me, which has been mentioned in comments above.
If anyone is offended by me digging up out of print texts, translating them, analysing them, and then taking the information contained in those texts to its natural and logical conclusion, they can go find a safe space and cry.
Should anyone want to sue me for this, here is my response: bring it on.
I have to say, there is something very disturbing about the idea of asil Arabians being forced to be under the umbrella of the WAHO, a distinctly Western organization geared toward the Western Arabian, when the Arabian horse, the notion of the Arabian horse and by-and-large the genetics itself, come from Near Eastern sources that have long been under the thumb of various forms of Western imperialism – as relates to the recommendation that Arabians be double registered with the WAHO with respect to its entity as a governing body of Arabians. I think it’s less insulting to breeders to state that their horses are not Arabians proper, and more an effect of cognitive dissonance with regard to the idea that the mythology they’ve wrapped their horses around may not, in fact, be wholly appropriate for the animals. Most Western Arabians have a history that extends at least over a century now, and is very respectable as a breed history in its own right, but it has never quite sat right with me that so many Westerners use older Arabian horse mythology and history with horses that in all likelihood would not have qualified as rightful heirs to the legacy per the cultural norms that these cultural ideas came from. But then again… much of the mythology of the Arabian as exists today is likely at least partially a figment of Western imagination.
But anyway. I am really here for the primary sources.
Patrick,
Is not necessary to argue in such an ill-mannered and offensive way your views. It is unpleasant to read your comments, especially the first response to Lyman Doyle.
Lyman,
Did you read “The Man Who Bred Skowronek” by Andrew Steen?
I have read Andrew Steen’s book several times. It is on my hit list of articles and books that I will review after the evidence on Skowronek’s ancestry is clearly presented and analysed. Since his book is relatively recent, I will probably get to it sometime next year.
We will apply the standard I mentioned above to him: what did Steen know, and when did he know it?
Lyman: got a chance to look over some of the writings on your Skowronek site.. Keep up the good work!!! Was elated to see someone finally put a number to the percentage of arabian blood in the Polish breeding program- two thirds to four fifths. Several years ago American Shagya breeder Adele Furby guestimated the percent of arab blood in the Shagyas at 75 to 90 percent. To me the Shagyas more closely resemble the better cradle country Asils than they do the present day u.s. arabs. Better legs, nicer angles in the hips and hindquarters, steadier dispositions. Overall Lyman your work is rather impressive. Good Job
best
Bruce Peek
p.s. what was Skowroneks per cent of arab blood I have heard as high as 96% but that seems awfully high.
Bruce-
It depends what you count as an Arabian. Most of his Arab ancestors are not documented well. I hope to put a number on the Arabian content in Skowronek sometime next year.
Thanks,
Lyman
Wow I missed the “hot topic” going on here 😮
“I have to say, there is something very disturbing about the idea of asil Arabians being forced to be under the umbrella of the WAHO, a distinctly Western organization geared toward the Western Arabian, when the Arabian horse, the notion of the Arabian horse and by-and-large the genetics itself, come from Near Eastern sources that have long been under the thumb of various forms of Western imperialism – as relates to the recommendation that Arabians be double registered with the WAHO with respect to its entity as a governing body of Arabians. I think it’s less insulting to breeders to state that their horses are not Arabians proper, and more an effect of cognitive dissonance with regard to the idea that the mythology they’ve wrapped their horses around may not, in fact, be wholly appropriate for the animals. Most Western Arabians have a history that extends at least over a century now, and is very respectable as a breed history in its own right, but it has never quite sat right with me that so many Westerners use older Arabian horse mythology and history with horses that in all likelihood would not have qualified as rightful heirs to the legacy per the cultural norms that these cultural ideas came from. But then again… much of the mythology of the Arabian as exists today is likely at least partially a figment of Western imagination.”
Thank you Moira, this is the most awesome thing I’ve read for days !!
You always have to look at both sides of the mirror…
One can see the side of the mirror where the non Asil Arabians are “downgraded” by being fully acknowledged as having part-bred ancestry.
But if you look on the other side, you can learn about these part-bred ancestors…They have history ALSO…By ignoring these horses, by denying their existence, we are also losing part of an heritage…Well yes it is not an Arabic heritage, it is a Western heritage…Does that makes it less valuable? I don’t think so…
There is some awesome horse breeds bred from part Arabian ancestry: Shagyas, Gidrans, Anglo-Arabians, Puro Sange Orientale,…To recognize these breeds as not being purebred Arabians does not make them less valuable or talented horses.
When I found that there was some Limousin blood in the French Arabians…I felt sorry not only for the Asil lines lost because of this deletion of part-bred ancestry records…but also because it was denying the own history of my country…leading into the consideration that the Limousin breed was extinct…
Erasing centuries of homeland breeding tradition, breeders and horses names from the national collective memory because of an oriental myth supported by Western colonialist totally outdated views could never never be a good idea…
“Let’s obscurantism go back to obscurity”
Hello!
Please all to read this analysis. Science has no nationality or favors, either side. This study clearly shows the purity of Polish dam lines, including those from Slawuta.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5946349_A_new_view_on_dam_lines_in_Polish_Arabian_horses_based_on_mtDNA_analysis
Regards
Michal Kurach
Michal-
Did you actually read this mtDNA study? Meaning did you buy it and download it and read the whole thing? Or did you just read the introduction which is the free part? Most people just read the introduction and since they have to pay for it don’t read anything else. What did you do?
I actually paid for it and read it several times and the study clearly DOES NOT show the purity of the Slawuta dam lines.
I will get to this study later this year and show how the author is gravely mistaken not only on her methodology and her conclusions.
Stay tuned.
Lyman
Many European and Russian publications from back then were near constant and pure propaganda and slander, meant exactly to discredit and destroy reputations and people. Russia and Poland have had a war filled past, and in this era they were gearing up for the Polish–Soviet War. There has been unrest in that area from about the 1600’s. As far as any ‘testimony’ from any one back then, knowing historical propaganda as I do, (and that CAN be proven easily, and is well known) I strongly criticize any and all ‘testimony’ and any publications from that time period and before. What tells me this is propaganda (FAKE NEWS, if you prefer that term.) is that, and I quote you, “The descent of Zboj was absolutely unknown since the Turk who rode him was killed in battle and the horse was caught by Russian soldiers.” Polish take absolute PRIDE in their Arabians, and have for hundreds of years, and they would NEVER breed a horse of unknown origin captured by Russians, with whom they have been at war with for centuries. The Polish have far more pride than that.