Halima, 1944 Dahmah Shahwaniyah
By Sheikh El Arab out of Ragia by Ibn Rabdan. Dam of Ibn Halima by Nazeer, who became Ansata Ibn Halima in the USA.
Long ears (good, an indication of asalah), long face (good), narrow forehead (less good). That type of Straight Egyptian horses disappeared in one generation. Mares like these were absorbed in the Nazeer/Morafic tsunami. Pity.
I wonder what she would have done had she been bred to Sameh, or Sid Abouhom? Colts from those crosses probably would have had better legs.
best
Bruce Peek
Happy Friday everyone and happy day after Thanksgiving. I hope you all enjoyed the wonderful holiday with your loved ones by your side.
I wouldn’t be honest, if I didn’t write that I was mildly irritated by the “better legs” comment, especially because the historical role of Nazeer, as picked by General Tibor Pettko Von Szandtner for the EAO breeding program was to correct legs and structure within the breeding herd at El Zahraa.
You need to read the herd notes that Judith Forbis hand copied from the General’s personal herdbooks in the 1960’s and included in her monumental work, Authentic Arabian Bloodstock, Volume II for full understanding of the individual horse we know as Nazeer. Also, Judith Forbis included comments made by Dr. Ameen Zaher, who functioned in a consultative role to the EAO and was a published author (Dr. Zaher’s book, Arabian Horse Breeding and the Arabians of America is a personal favorite of mine). Dr. Zaher told Judith Forbis, “Szandtner wanted to work on correcting legs and searched for a stallion from which he could acquire the heritage of good legs. When stallions came back from the depots, Szandtner went to Bahteem (Dr. Zaher told us he went with him) and Szandtner picked Nazeer.”
Furthermore, Judith Forbis added a significant personal observation addressing Nazee’s leg conformation, “Photos of this horse showing him with badly trimmed feet and no heels gave rise to some erroneous judgements about his legs.”
Halima was bred to Sid Abouhom, producing the vitally important mare, Moheba, in 1951. When Moheba was bred to El Sareei, she produced the mare Malacha, who was imported to Germany and became a very important mare in German straight Egyptian breeding. Her Ghazal daughter, Malikah, combined with Hadban Enzahi, gave our world very important horses like Malik, Mahomed and Maymoonah, to name only a few.
I think the comment could have been better worded, specifically for the outcross potential, meaning, had Halima been bred to stallions like Sameh, there would be more opportunities for breeders to incorporate the bloodline of Halima, albeit in a different form, than how this bloodline is primarily available today. For example, Sameh, crossed with the Dahmah Shahwaniah strain through the mare Dahma II (tail female Farida to El Dahma), produced the spectacular bay mare *Deenaa. Imagine more horses like that!
I feel very strongly about this subject and the EAO-bred Egyptian Arabian horse, as preserved by many people who are no longer alive. I apologize for jumping in here to write this reply. I hope I haven’t offended anyone or you, Bruce. I wanted to clarify, so that there is no misunderstanding on Nazeer.
Ralph
Me, I like Nazeer. Who would not like him. He was “almost perfect”. But, when a bloodline is present everywhere, it is normal for people to want to look elsewhere. It’s like having to eat turkey every day of the year :))
Happy Thanksgiving Ralph!
And I should have included more specific examples of Nazeers getting bred to more refined lines down the years- like the Monet lines as the tiny legs movement gathered steam and then took over and spread into the general list horses too. An added nail in the coffin of the general list horses was the swamping of U.S. horses with poor quality Polish horses which farriers have told me caused most of the problems with the now very widely spread
high-low heel conformation of the front legs. Of course the major driver of importing poor quality horses from Europe was the marketing boom of the 70’s and early 80’s, when truly awful Polish mares who were mentally unsound were brought here because their, “Pure Polish,” get fetched a high price.
Now here is a way to fix the tooth pick crooked legs issue. Make substance a selling point like many of the endurance people have done. We often see an endurance stallion at stud with their cannon size listed. If asil breeders followed suit and developed a gene pool known for adding size and substance other breeders would beat a path to their door.
Ralph the arabian market has been generally low since the tax subsidies were repealed in the mid 80s because you can’t do anything with them except let them be a pasture ornament. They are too small for an adult to ride, spooky, and in general move inverted like cows instead of like horses. A notable exception to the above are some of the anglo arabs like Vermiculus by Serazim, who came top ten at this years Burghley five star three day event. His arab side of the pedigree contains Meteor, son of the Bani Khalid mare Thorayah( sp) These horses are doing horses with trainable dispositions. They have a useful mind set and the physical ability to be ridden not just looked at.
best regards
Bruce Peek
There are some Nazeer bred horses that have done well in endurance. Rashad Ibn Nazeer (Pritzlaff) breeding that Crockett has and seem to be of great and good leg structure.
Just think of what could have been if those Egyptian mare lines had been bred along the philosophy of Craver Farms: to bring out the individuality of the mares.
Well since I was able to talk to Lazlo Monostory , one of Von Szandters students from Hungary on 6 separate occasions about how Arabs and Shagyas were bred I was acquainted with his thinking about conformation. R.J was one of Lazlos friends when he lived in Seattle too. There is also that letter from Von Szandter to Raswan happily exclaiming about Kuhaylan Zaids get having good legs, so we know that proper conformation was Von Szandters breeding goal. IIRC Judy Forbis published an extensive review of several Egyptian horses in which Lazlo was quoted telling of Von Szandters thinking about specific horses. And of course there was Von Szandtners action of bringing Nazeer back from the Police stud farm to the EAO and making extensive use of him and Sid Abouhom.
All of the above is I think, a sound argument for us today to duplicate as best we can the Hungarians method of evaluating and testing prospective stallions which was very similar to modern testing of sport horse prospects i.e. dressage, and cross country training in the horses 4th year, although it is said the Hungarians went a step further and added distance riding to the training regimen too.
best
Bruce Peek
Thank you, Jenny! I think Charles’s breeding philosophy was excellent, even if it did mean we had a LOT of stallions to allow each mare to express herself genetically. Just imagine how much trouble we could have made if we had government funding!
The initial diversity in Egyptian female lines is stunning, and yet today most New Egyptian horses look like each other (Nazeer/Morafic/Ibn Halima/Sheikh Al Badi/The Egyptian Prince/Ruminaja Ali).